One for all you theists out there, somewhere

Debate Room
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I’ve gone and gotten all confused again.

As far as I’m aware, Paul never actually met Jesus.He had visions, such as the beauty one the road to Damascus . I don’t believe the claim that companions shared his visions (no proof)

After removing the forged letters, there are the unfounded claims of some bloke who had visions.

Paul’s visions have been as powerful in the history of Christianity as the gospels.
Not really surprising. Together the Pauline epistles and the gospels complete what I think of as the core of Christian mythology.

Although I’ve tended to take an historical** view of Jesus,my views have begun to change to a mythology perspective.

The ordure posted here recently by apologist are no more than attempts at obfuscation . Probably because they are not able to prove their most basic claim; the existence of any god.

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  • " Paul; The Mind Of The Apostle’ A N Wilson.

** By ‘historical’ I mean the opinion that at best: A wondering Rabbi with a name something like Yeshua/Yoshua bar Yussuf MIGHT have existed in first century Judea, He MAY have founded a small Jewish sect like say the Ebionites. He MAY have been
crucified for sedition by the Romans. That there is no contemporary evidnence for his existence of which I am aware.

The religion we call Christianity did not emerge as THE sect (out of dozens) claiming Jesus as founder , until the fourth century. .

***That Jesus did not exist as an historical person. Still haven’t decided. Currently becoming familiar with the ideas of Dr Richard Carrier. His claim is that Christianity is a synthesis of Judaism and the Greek mystery religions. It’s a fascinating claim,and so far, is pretty compelling… So far,I’ve only seem a couple of his lectures on YouTube. I really want to read couple of his books

. I think it’s too easy to give glib answers in lectures. I prefer the written word, with references. I’m also interested inreuttals, based on fact, not theology, which I reject out of hand.

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That reference quote was specific to “stalkers”.
Yah, Paul only had hearsay and his brain epileptic vision (at best IMO)

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You would be wrong. Paul does not agree with the gospels. Paul does not agree with the teachings of Jesus.

Humans are born damnably guilty in God’s eyes, and good deeds are not required for salvation are elements of the Gospels, not in Paul’s writings. The concept of an eternal hell of conscious torment is entirely imagined, attributed to Paul on the basis of some mistaken picture of what the New Testament as a whole teaches.

"Paul’s actual teachings, however, as taken directly from the Greek of his letters, emphasise neither original guilt nor imputed righteousness (he believed in neither), but rather the overthrow of bad angels. A certain long history of misreadings – especially of the Letter to the Romans – has created an impression of Paul’s theological concerns so entirely alien to his conceptual world that the real Paul occupies scarcely any place at all in Christian memory. "

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Faith in gods can enter your life in many ways. It can be ingrained through childhood indoctrination or imbued through innocent wonder, or you embrace it later in life through some epiphany brought on by intense existential turmoil or some desperate circumstance.
Once gained it is hard to dismiss. But, like many people experience, as I did, once the “scales fall from your eyes”, and you can no longer hold on to the old truths and beliefs, its veritably impossible to return to them. Once you see the old woman in the puzzle picture you can’t stop seeing her over the young woman.

YHWH, Jesus, Holy Spirit. It depends if you are a Trinitarian, Unitarian or some merge of the two. For all I know there are still Manichaeists, Docetists, Arianists out there. My brother in law identifies as a Catharist. I try to be politely inclusive, despite my own disbelief.

You already know about the claims made about the contradictions in the Bible. They have been around for centuries. I find many to be the outcome of translations, editings, redactions etc Contradictions aren’t necessarily indications of deceit, just error. I don’t make charges against the claims of inerrancy in the Bible because I understand it was only written by men. If it had been written by women it might not have been such a mess.
The fact remains there are inconsistencies all through the books of the Bible, from contradictions to glaring editorial conflicts. I would expect such for a publication with a such a long and confused history.
I do not consider myself ignorant of understanding divine matters, despite my atheism, that’s just more of your prejudice. Though I am no longer in thrall of the supposed universal truths claimed to be in it, I still find the Bible fascinating on many levels. I recognise there are certain passages that contain good advice and considered evident wisdom, so too does the Analects of Confucius and even the Quoran and other religious tomes. But as I value truth, I still feel it my duty to challenge beliefs of all sorts, not out of any animosity but out of hope for better understanding for both parties.

The next verse, Titus 1 16, begins ‘They profess that they know God’. Titus deals with hypocrites. Yes I am an atheist, but the purity referred to in Titus is the purity of faith and belief. I profess none of that.

You want me to persecute someone on the basis of their name?

I have evidences of various kinds and from diverse sources that point to the suggestion that Paul subverted the Christian faith and some of his writings reveal his resentments for Peter and the Jerusalem apostles that do not reflect brotherly love, but rather jealousy and bombast. If the two resolved their differences I am inclined to think it would mostly be due to concessions Peter made, as per 2 Peter where he encourages the reading of Paul’s epistles with a passing note on their difficult content. I note Paul makes no mention of Peter in 2 Timothy. That they both were in Rome when they were executed, there is no record I am aware of that suggests they ‘preached together’ as is claimed on some theist site. I admit to no religious faith but that sort of faith is not a reliable tool for reaching the truth, it only propagates determination not to be swayed from the dogmatic concept of ‘absolute truth’.

My real purpose is to ask how certain professing Christians are that they are following the ‘true’ teachings of Christ. Can they be absolutely certain Paul did not dishonestly subvert Jesus’s insistence to observe the Mosaic laws. On the face of it Paul’s writings only served the purposes of making Jesus’s teaching more attractive for the squirmish tastes of Gentile men ("Cut off the end of my what??!!) and Gentile gourmets (but I love oysters!), so how are these concessions are compatible with the god of Abraham and consistent with a imperative belief in him? It just seems like one of the greatest marketing ploys of all time and one of the most successful cons ever.
Frankly I think the Essenes, who still exist, are probably a closer fit to what might have been the original teachings of Jesus.

I don’t care to comment on whether Paul was damned or not, I’ve certainly never said I hated him as you cruelly suggest. I have described him a psychopath (a non judgemental psychological condition, like depression), a sufferer of TLEs (temporal lobe epilepsy, another medical condition), a liar (aren’t we all? See the plank in my eye?) a manipulator (passive aggressive or just aggressive or both?) and a narcissist (I have dealt with several diagnosed as such, the bona fide ones reject the notion that they are). There’s not much reason there for me to hate him; he hasn’t subverted any current faith of mine. I have friends that display these traits, but they’ve had hard lives and I cut them slack. I see Paul more of a human victim, as much as I see Judas a victim. None the less I maintain Judas betrayed Jesus and Paul subverted Jesus’s message and for this Christians resent me.

I really do have a friend named Atilla. He’s six foot five and an exceptionally kind human being. I feel no need to take anything out on him. He is no Hun.

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LOL. Have you ever tried to assemble flatpack furniture or an electronic gadget from China? Like your bible, those instructions were translated across multiple languages by underpaid, under-qualified linguists.

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Calling many of the early scribes ‘linguists’ is a bit of a stretch. It was not uncommon for some of such people to be illiterate, even in their own language… IE they could copy but not read. That’s enough to boggle the mind, before even getting to the literate scribes who omitted or added sections according to their own beliefs.

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Speaking of IKEA. Rarely buy their stuff because much of needs regular tightening of screws. Otherwise it tends to collapse. Once whilst sitting in my computer chair one of the arm rests fell off, followed by me.

The last thing I bought was last year; a set of six white demitasse because I couldn’t find what I wanted anywhere else.

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Really. I was alluding to Pauline Christianity ,or that which modern scholars call ‘Paulism’

Imo Paul’s visions ,the forgeries and subsequent mythologising have effected and continue effect modern Christianity.

However, this only opinion based on poorly remembered bits of A N Wilson’s “Paul.The Mind Of The Apostle” Think I’d better have another look.

In the meantime,the following from a review. Pretty much as I remember the book.:

'As A. N. Wilson, biographer of Tolstoy, C. S. Lewis, and Jesus, makes clear in this astonishing and gripping narrative, Christianity without Paul is quite literally nothing. Jesus, with the layers of exegesis, scholarship, and ceremony stripped away, is a Jew, a fastidious and fervent Jew, who would lead his followers into a stricter, purer observance of Judaism. It is Paul who will claim divinity for him, who will transform him into the Messiah, center of an entirely new religion. ----"

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/paul-the-mind-of-the-apostle-a-n-wilson/1104318310

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You missed the point of my post. “Christianity Attributed to Paul.” What Christians attribute to Paul is not Pauline Christianity. Paul’s writings are long forgotten.

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@Grinseed

That moment when it was so sure you didn’t understand any I said about faith.

It’ll be a shame if we end it and you’ve still got this warped idea about it. Trust me, you and all those people whom scales fell from their eyes never had an ounce of faith. Maybe some bible learning, yeah, the right and wrong. Those are subject to change, even for the one with faith, but as matter is unchanged by learning, so faith. The crust, stars, trees, sky, haven’t changed with the tech revolution, neither faith. Like these, it isn’t learnt, but contacted. Y’all prolly went to church and learnt whatever men or books told you but faith, you see, cannot be gotten without a direct activation from the creator himself. Tell me, did you ever have anything you can relate to a direct contact with the creator? Please elaborate. Also, don’t forget my experiment on unwavering hope.

The Bible lacks the alleged inconsistencies. All a result of men’s misunderstanding including you.

Challenge beliefs all you may, till you can challenge the sun or moon, you can’t challenge faith. You may challenge religionists doctrines, but not faith. Faith’s either touches you or it doesn’t. Creator’s the only source of it.

I assure you 100%, you’re 100% ignorant, nothing personal and as you bring forth your bogus ideas, I will show you that. Faith is where it all begins, and you can’t get that from the holiest book on earth.

I don’t give a hoot about human sources. Men are fallible. Now substantiate your claim objectively or just plain drop it. That includes your claims of Paul’s writing having resentments for the Apostles and Peter.

Well, not the professors, but every genuine believer has the substrate of faith in Christ. If he allows this grow like a germ in him, he need care not but he is 100% following the true teachings of christ. His words are not for mere grasping but for contacting. They are spirit and life, John 6:65, the substrate growing on the inside. Many believers however are not wise in their germ of spirit as the men are wise in their germ of reason, Luke 16:8

You said> Can they be absolutely certain Paul did not dishonestly subvert Jesus’s insistence to observe the Mosaic laws.

This is another misunderstanding stemming from trying to reconcile two agents of faith from the germ of veiled reason. Reason looks at Moses with a veil, Paul, a man of faith, wise in his germ, merely takes off the veil, to look Moses in the face, 2 Cor 3:15-16. Sadly, even many genuine believers fall into such error.

Any Christian that resents you for your ignorance is obviously not growing his germ. You ought to be pitied only and hoped the best for, before you’re even schooled on such
Finally, The summary of all this is come over to my thread where we do the dirty work on the illogicality of atheistic beliefs including the portions of my post you skillfully avoided and for here, if you will learn of faith. Start with my experiment on giving yourself unwavering hope of peace with creator. I wonder who those are loving your posts when the game is yet to begin

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BULLSHIT you arrogant prick. Don’t you even dare question “what faith” you THINK we may or may not have had…

No true Scotsman fallacy…

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Oh fuck … another one who hears voices and is so fucking special he gets divine revelation. ITS YOUR BRAIN :brain: you know - that organ that’s all rusty from your lack of use.

OK - list the 10 commandments …

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Watching the wrath of a pissed off ex JW. It’s sorta like going tornado watching. As long as you can stay out of their fucking way, they are amazing to watch. Put one little toe in front of them and they will rip that little fucker off. LOL…

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This is just another incredibly lame excuse theists invent when they run out of answers. Whitefire13, at one time both of us (and many other atheists) were 100% invested and believed in a god. We know why we deconverted, because we used critical and rational thinking. When we asked the question, “is there a god?”, the answer and evidence was in the negative.

Hundreds of years ago we apostates would be treated differently. You would have definitely been burned at the stake for being a witch, and I would probably suffer a similar fate. Fortunately today society has put limits on the evil religion can inflict, all they can do is pretend that we “just can’t see”, or “the spirit is not in you”, or other crap.

Deep down they know they can not evidence their god, so we see this perpetual litany of excuses.

For any theists reading this, the solution is incredibly simple. Please provide evidence of a god. If you can do that, my position will change.

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Mkay.

I’ll accept that on face value for the nonce because I think you may be right. I’ll have another look at Wilson’s book as soon as I can. Your opinion is a radical open to me, but has the ring of truth…-- after all,deceit, forgery, chicanery,plus mass murder became the hallmark of the christian church from the fourth century on.

Today that corrupt institution is synonymous with the sexual abuse of children.

Returning to a scholar with whose work I am familiar is not to try to discredit you-- It’s only an academic dicussion with no emotional stakes for me.

If Wilson’s book matches your claim fine. If not I’ll post some of what he says for your opinion.

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Faith is a constant and powerful aspect of the human experience. The positive aspect of possessing faith has been proven to have a direct beneficial impact on physical and mental health.

I can have faith, if in the event my being a victim of a serious accident, that the ambulance has been called and that it is on its way, which gives me hope that it will arrive before I die. But my faith will not have any bearing on when the ambulance will arrive, on time or if at all. It will only sustain me while I wait. Likewise faith can provide no evidence for any god. It only establishes a believer’s hope.

Hebrew’s 11:1 has numerous multiple, mixed, variations in several translations in a range of bibles, none of which reads completely true. Faith has no substance, it is not measurable, is not an assurance or a guarantee. Its an expression of hope, and is certainly not evidence of things unseen. The flashing lights and siren of the ambulance and my survival will be the evidence of my faith in the ambulance. I can certainly have faith that there is a god but my faith does not serve as evidence of the existence of that god, only as evidence of my hope it exists.

The ancient Egyptian farmers had faith their gods would ensure the Nile would flood and irrigate the crop beds they had prepared and they had faith that the Priests would let them know when to begin their preparations. The priests had faith in their arcane reading of the stars and planets in the night sky when to alert the farmers. The Priests had learned to measure the length of the day and to count the number of days between the floodings and to confirm their count with the appearance of the star Sirius rising as it will every year over the horizon, just before dawn, as the precursor for the annual flood. And the farmers faith was answered because of the realities of astronomy, meteorology and geography. Faith played an enormous role in the emergence of early technologies in the absence of formal sciences.

I could apply the veil that Paul mentions in Titus about anyone’s perception about anything at all. I can say that a pre-suppositional veil prevents Christians from perceiving any aspect of reality without reference to an omnipotent creator god that lacks evidence of its existence. Its the fundamental difference between theists and atheists. Ken Ham does much the same thing with his concept of 'Biblical glasses", a quaint imagined device for justifying the pre-suppositions of Christians.

But perhaps I am too harsh on Paul. His writings are hard to understand even if you are aware he was only emphasising the redemptive power of Jesus’s resurrection over the Mosaic Law, but once he had undermined the provisions for circumcision and food restrictions, he inadvertently allowed the Gentiles to open the flood gates, and today very little of the Law, that Jesus had said he had come to uphold, is observed in Christian religions. Nearly every jot and tittle seems to have been overthrown. And so I insist Paul subverted Jesus’s teachings.
And it remains to ask with what authority did Paul presume to make concessions to the Gentiles? Jesus made no special arrangements for the spreading of his word to the world in his ‘great commission’.

There are no contemporaneous witnesses to corroborate the details of Paul’s Damascene conversion. He refers to it in his epistles and Acts records three different versions of the event as related to Luke by Paul himself.
It is only on the authority of his word that he received his marching orders from Jesus. Little wonder, that together with his fearsome reputation as a killer of Christians, the apostles kept their distance when he came to Jerusalem.
If Jesus had seen fit to appear to Paul and to faithful Ananias, who also gets an exclusive explanation about the expectations of Paul’s mission, why wouldn’t Jesus also appear to Peter, his Rock and nominated representative on earth. It might have saved a great deal of dissension and discord.
And after all, by the time Paul gets to the Jerusalem Council c.50 AD to settle the conditions of his Gentile mission, it has only been twenty years since Jesus’s resurrection, and given his promise for an imminent return, it seems incredibly premature and improbable, for a need to change direction and details, in such a short time. Yes, I know, I am not privy to understanding the mind of the Christian god and this unfortunate oversight really doesn’t help matters one little bit.

As for the contradictions and the inconsistencies, they exist. For me they have little bearing on the truth of the Bible and its is more about the inefficiency of written languages. I don’t consider it an issue for debate. Google ‘bible contradictions’, knock yourselves out, there are innumerable examples.

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Indeed.

Also an invention called a ‘nilometer’. The kind of faith which says ’ god helps those who help themselves’ .Invented ca 3000 bce

So I believe. Even though Jesus himself is recorded to have said the opposite ;

Matthew 5:18 “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”

I guess one of the many occasions where biblical hermeneutics come in handy.

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A nilometer was a structure for measuring the Nile River’s clarity and water level during the annual flood season.[1] There were three main types of nilometers, calibrated in Egyptian cubits: (1) a vertical column, (2) a corridor stairway of steps leading down to the Nile, or (3) a deep well with culvert.[1] If the water level was low, there would be less food. If it was too high, it would be destructive. There was a specific mark that indicated how high the flood should be if the fields were to get good soil.[2][1]

Measuring shaft of the Nilometer on Rhoda Island, Cairo

Between July and November, the reaches of the Nile running through Egypt would burst their banks and cover the adjacent flood plain. When the waters receded, around September or October, they left behind a rich alluvial deposit of exceptionally fertile black silt over the croplands. The akhet , or Season of the Inundation, was one of the three seasons into which the Ancient Egyptians divided their year.

It would be difficult to overstate the importance of the annual flood to Egyptian civilization. A moderate inundation was a vital part of the agricultural cycle; however, a lighter inundation than normal would cause famine, and too much flood water would be equally disastrous, washing away much of the infrastructure built on the flood plain. Records from AD 622–999 indicate that, on average, 28% of the years saw an inundation that fell short of expectations.[2]

The ability to predict the volume of the coming inundation was part of the mystique of the Ancient Egyptian priesthood. The same skill also played a political and administrative role, since the quality of the year’s flood was used to determine the levels of tax to be paid. This is where the nilometer came into play, with priests monitoring the day-to-day level of the river and announcing the awaited arrival of the summer flood.

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Good advice that will not be taken … I’m still waiting for a theist reply to then10 Commandments…

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@algebe

I don’t know yet. The question remains open.

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@algebe

Absolutely. I’m not claiming they do. I just noted types of evidence people will use to justify any belief for that matter.

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@Sheldon

What part of this did you not understand ???