Hello, I’m a new guy to the forum. I was hanging out at home and was getting kind of bored so I thought I would sign up to get my but kicked around on a debate forum.
Let me put forward this very basic question.
What is Atheism?
Hi, @Uranium333.
As with any word, different folks may have different meanings for atheism. For me, it means I don’t believe in any gods. I also hold that there is a difference between knowing and believing. I don’t believe any gods exist AND I don’t know if any do. Therefore, I identify as an agnostic atheist.
You have designated yourself as agnostic. What does that mean to you?
2 Likes
Have you tried Googling it? It’s in the dictionary.
noun
- disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
I’ll provide my usual answer.
Atheism, in its rigorous formulation, is nothing more than suspicion of unsupported mythology fanboy assertions. That is IT.
Equivalently, it consists of “YOU assert that your magic man exists, therefore YOU support that assertion”.
“My mythology says so” and ex recto apologetic fabrications don’t count as “evidence”.
Hello @Uranium333 and welcome atheism is simply the disbelief or non belief in gods an atheist simply don’t believe in god . I screenshot the definition of atheism from Google dictionary .
1 Like
Why did you capitalize the word atheism? Capitalizing it implies it is a religion (a proper noun), but it is NOT a religion. I hope you aren’t implying that it is.
2 Likes
Hope the five hours you’ve ignored this thread you created wasn’t too boring for you?
1 Like
Atheism is letting go of theism. In the case of those who never had it, never picking it up. Nothing else. No one becomes an atheist. There are no rites of passage, no dogma, no belief system. Atheists, in the most simplistic way I can possibly put it, ‘do not believe in God or gods.’ The idea of a God or god makes as much sense to an atheist as Big Foot, The Loch Ness Monster, Santa, or the Tooth Fairy. If you are a theist, I will ask you why don’t you believe in the Buddhist doctrine of Nirvana, birth and rebirth, karma? Just as these have no meaning to you, the Christian, Hindu, Islam, Jewish, Etc, gods have no meaning to us. You already know what it is like to be an Atheist. You are an atheist regarding most gods in the world. You find them silly, not true, mythical, fantasies created by men. Atheists just go one god farther. How is it your god is special? If you were born in Thailand you would be Buddhist. If you were born in India you would be Hindu. If you were born in the Philippines, you would be Catholic. If you were born in Israel you would be Jewish. How is it that you just happened to be born in the right country and are now worshiping the right god? Isn’t that just amazing? How lucky is that for you! Can you even imagine how silly you sound to us?
4 Likes
That’s what I wanted to hear a real definition. Thank you Cognostic for the effort. I can google stuff of course but how can a single google definition capture the beliefs and experiences of an individual. I wanted to hear it from the horses mouth.
What if I said I don’t believe an atheist is real. You claim to not believe in God but I can make the claim that you are a God. The universe began when you were born and it will end when you die your perceptions formed the universe and that universe of perception will collapse when you are gone. Doesn’t that mean you are a god? Making you a covert theist? As long as you believe in you you believe in a form of god which is yourself. “i think Therefore I am” funny that “i am” is the definition of the word Yahweh.
I suppose you could say that you believe that the universe will go on after you are dead but you cant prove that statement. So you are still a theist master of your own creation.
There is one and only one thing an atheist is concerned with and that is the existence of a God or gods. Calling me a god does not change that fact. If you are asserting the universe did not exist prior to my existence, you are making an assertion that goes against all we know and have learned about our existence and the existence of the surrounding universe. I’m sorry, but I am going to need a little more than “What if I said?”
You can make any claim you like. Truth is that which comports with reality. I can call a paper cup a god and it does not make it so. People have called all sorts of things Gods; crocodiles, turtles, tigers, and even other people. I can think of several people on the planet now who hold themselves to be gods. Kim, Jong-un, Sergei Anatolyevitch Torop, José Luis de Jesús, and more.
Perhaps I could be the Hindu version of God. Just one element of God playing hide and seek from itself? Still, without evidence. Without something substantiating the claim, all you have is an unfalsifiable fairy tale. Something made up in the minds of men. Something that can not be justified in any way at all. Something that will join the other hundreds of thousands of mythical beliefs humans hold and once held to be true.
You are correct. I think therefore I am… But it runs deeper. You are what you believe. Choose your beliefs wisely. You can be a God if you want to. I have a hard enough time just trying to be a human.
EDIT: When I look at the people in this world who are or were gods, I am completely unimpressed. From Jesus copying Orion, Inanna, and Dionysus, to the three magical flood stories. From Josep Smith meeting Angels in America to Muhamad meeting them in a cave in Mt. Hira. And for God’s sake, let’s not leave out Lord Xenu! You believe what you want to believe. I’ll wait for the evidence.
2 Likes
Here is a thought experiment for you. Two people are standing in front of you. One of them is a god and the other is the creation of the god. Explain to me what is different about them. And what are you in this situation? Could you be the creation of the creation? Where does this silliness stop?
EDIT: THOUGHT OF ANOTHER ONE. In my world (THE ONE I CREATED) you are a blue bunny rabbit and elevators are time machines that can take you to the land under the mountains where the lizard people live. We hunt blue bunnies for dinner, and we are going to get you. I have a gun and I know where you live. (Now what do we do with people who create a world like the one I have created? If I am a god and I create my own world, why in the hell am I locked up in a rubber room with my hands strapped to my chest?) Please explain?
3 Likes
It can’t, it can only define atheism, and all atheists by definition must lack any belief in any deity or deities, whatever else an atheist believes or not doesn’t change that.
You can claim we’re all turnips, it’s no less meaningless without explanation or objective evidence.
You would be demonstrably wrong, since there are people who don’t believe any deity or deities exist.
Nope, wrong again, there is sufficient objective evidence that the universe is 13.7 billion years old, and human beings didn’t even evolve until a mere 200k years ago.
Again this is demonstrable nonsense, since countless people have died, and the universe goes on.
No, they are subjective nonsensical anecdotes, that contradict and are contradicted by objective facts.
Are you trying to set some sort of record for erroneous claims? Your antipathy towards dictionaries is showing.
Leaving aside the absurd and unevidenced claim humans are gods, since it is unevidenced nonsense, even were it true it would not make me a theist unless I believed a deity existed. Language doesn’t seem to be your forte.
- The assertion your claim has merit because it cannot be disproved is a known fallacy in informal logic, call an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. I have hyperlinked a full explanation of the fallacy for you to learn why your assertion is irrational nonsense. I also don’t need to know something is untrue in order to withhold belief, and basing belief on not knowing is frankly absurd.
- Since it is an objective fact that the universe is 13.7 billion years old, and the human species a mere 200k, and countless humans have died and yet the universe goes on, your anecdotal unevidenced and irrational claim is also demonstrably wrong.
You have not even tried to demonstrate a shred of objective evidence, just posted a string of subjective claims, most of which are at odds with objective facts. I can only hope this is a misplaced attempt at humour.
One thing is perfectly clear, you’re no more an agnostic than I am a god.
1 Like
Brilliant deduction Sheldon i am a devout Christian, who had a day off and and got inspired to get on an atheists forum just to spout random nonsense. Everything I said was nonsense, at least to you. I used to be obsessed with logic and proofs like you. I wanted to know science and build a theory of the universe. But as I reasoned with myself I found that even the best of arguments could always be dissected and counterargued in some way. The cycle of arguments and proofs is a bottomless pit. Their is always another question, and you can always reexamine an argument you have already made and question its validity. At the end of the day a person must step back from the reason and make the choice to believe in what he sees in front of him. You must have faith that your eyes are not deceiving you and that all your most brilliant thoughts are not just an illusion generated by a Boltzman brain. I believe Jesus Christ is the son of God but I cant prove it to you just as you cannot prove to me that he he isn’t real. By faith i believe in him and by faith you do not believe in him. You say you are logical but I can just throw my hands into the air and say i’m to stupid to understand your arguments and your logic and science. Which is true that’s why I am a Christian. I as a person am not intelligent enough to know what truth is I am a blind man stumbling in the dark. So I need help, who will I ask for this help? Not another person such as myself why would i trust another man to lead me to the truth. Why not trust a god who knows what its like to be a man. You put faith into your own reason and ability to discern truth I put my Faith into God. This forum has convinced me of the existence of a hell, this surely must be a small piece of hell, a place where fools and blind men sit and tear each other apart argue and dispute for ever. They know they are going to die, that a day of reckoning will come. But they refuse to have hope. I feel as if the things i have read in your threads have been a descent into the underworld. It was enlightening but I will now return back to the land of the living and leave you to pick apart everything you see. I won’t waste any more time casting pearls before swine. I will prob never return to this forum the stinch of sulfur really gets to me. Your discussions have deepened my convictions that their is a god and if such a hell exists as this forum then heaven must exist somewhere. I will leave you with this try setting your reason aside someday cracking open the New Testament and and instead of doubting and picking it apart ask the question what if this guy Jesus was right.
It wasn’t a brilliant deduction, only an illiterate moron could miss it. The random nonsense all came from you, so well done.
Clearly, I told you that. trolling however is a breach of forum guidelines, so don’t be surprised if your pointless jolly is short lived.
I don’t believe you, I think you haven’t even the most basic grasp of what logic is, or what it tries to achieve.
Well there you go, clueless facile nonsense. Do you imagine that declaring yourself a lying troll will make us less inclined to expose your facile idiocy to critical scrutiny?
Nope, your claims were cleary irrational erroneous guff right out of the box, so you’re wrong again, as I said I doubt you have even the vaguest idea of what makes arguments strong / weak, or why some people find them compelling and others see through them.
Their, is a possessive pronoun champ.
Indeed, I’d go as far as to say this was a necessary requirement to anyone with any claim to an open mind, but if your reasoning is flawed then all your arguments will be as well, nothing in your posts thus far suggests to me you know how to create or assess strong arguments from weak ones.
Utter nonsense, one can do this, but the idea one should do this is absurd if one cares whether what one believes is true, and this confirms what I have just said, you are basing your arguments on what you have subjectively decided to believe, rather than basing what you believe on the merits of the arguments and evidence that support it.
Nonsense again, since religious faith is as about as much use to an atheist as a parachute is to a scuba diver, and I’d bet right know that without checking you don’t know what the definition of religious faith is, or how to create paragraphs apparently, as your verbiage is starting to hurt my eyes.
It is an objective fact that our sense can easily deceive us, so having faith they don’t is the very definition of deluding oneself.
- I never asked for proof, just that you demonstrate some objective evidence, without any I can only remain disbelieving, whatever the claim. Nor have I ever claimed Jesus was not the son of a deity, I simply don’t believe the claim he was, since there is no objective evidence to support it.
- Basing belief on not being able to disprove something is a textbook argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, again.
Crack on, but a more meaningless claim is hard to imagine.
Wrong again, even assuming you are using the dictionary definition of faith, and disingenuously equating it with the religious definition, since a lack or absence of belief must necessarily be our starting point every time, then when we are presented with a claim to examine our position can either move to belief if we see sufficient reason, or stay at disbelief if we remain unconvinced, NB not knowing is an absurd reason to believe, so I would still remain dubious or disbelieving, and not just about god claims, but about all claims.
Nope, I have never made this claim, nor would I incidentally.
Too not to, and ignorance is a pretty lame excuse to base belief or the denial of objective facts and rational arguments on. However if it makes you happy to revel in your ignorance that is your choice. I prefer to try and put a small dent in my own ignorance, and shall strive to do so until I am no longer able, then it’s hello darkness my old friend.
It’s not my logic or my science, those are methodologies, one for objectively studying the natural physical world and universe, and the other for identifying weak and poor reasoning, and creating strong and well reasoned arguments.
You believe in a Christian deity because you think you’re too stupid to reason well, or grasp how the methods of science strive to objectively understand reality? Seriously?
At the very least you might try not contradicting the best methods we have, like logic and science. However you seem content to pretend your reasoning is sound, so I fear this response will only be of use to others, who with an open mind want to know what is true and what not.
Circular reasoning fallacy, Google it and learn why the claim is a very weak argument. I also invite you to try and imagine how stupid it is to tell someone to trust a deity they don’t believe exists.
If you mean I trust the methods of science and logic, because they produce objectively quantifiable results that indicate they are far superior methods for understanding reality than anything else, then yes, but then it’d be pretty stupid to ignore that. Again I don’t think you know how religious faith is defined.
Fools? Given your previous assertions I don’t think you’re in any position to call anyone else’s reasoning foolish, and debating for the sake of it is something I and others enjoy very much, so even though I don’t believe in your imaginary posthumous torture chamber, if it involved endless debate it sounds quite appealing.
That’s an objective fact.
I don’t believe you, and your spiel so far is about as poorly reasoned and weakly constructed as I’ve seen, and without one shred of objective evidence, the fact you dishonestly came here to troll speaks volumes, as I don’t think you are as convinced as you’re now trying to suggest, having been found out.
Wrong again, you are consistent at least, and while I cannot speak for other atheists, I certainly hope, I would find life much harder without hope, and it is hard to imagine I am unique in that sense, I just don’t indulge weak subjective superstitious beliefs, and try to avoid biased wishful thinking.
Yes, you do seem woeful ill equipped for debate, and completely out of your depth.
I doubt that, a mind as closed as yours is rarely enlightened by anything they aren’t blindly already believing.
I shall endeavour to live with the disappointment.
Anymore is one word champ, if one is going to insult people, it might be wise (for you anyway) not to choose people with a basic level of literacy, and thus simply make yourself look a cunt into the bargain.
Well when the moderators see your admission of trolling it may not be a choice, but do try not to let the door hit you in the arse on the way out, there’s a good chap. Oh and be sure to recommend us to all your literate curious open minded friends, if you have any, which I seriously doubt.
Their is a possessive pronoun champ, and of course it has, that is how an utterly closed mind reacts to any and all ideas that challenge it’s myopic blind adherence to their subjective belief, dear oh dear.
No thank you, however if for some inexplicable reason I ever felt the urge to do this, I can always use your posts as a brilliant example…fish in a barrel, seriously.
I’ve read it thank you, you might follow your own advice, and learn that it is anonymous hearsay, written decades after the events it purports to describe, in a language different from that spoken, and from an epoch of extreme credulity, superstition and ignorance, traits you have admitted that you’re keen to emulate, so kudos as your posts suggest you’re making a grand job of that.
False dichotomy fallacy, well done for ending your verbiage as blindly irrationally as you commenced it. I think it must be time for the nurses to cut your fruit into your bowl for you now, so bye. Oh let me get both doors for you, so you and your ego can leave easily…
2 Likes
So our latest arrival is here under false pretences?
Specifically, the reason you do not rely on argument and search for fact and evidence. The argument changes based on the quality of the evidence. That is how science and humankind have progressed. That is why earth is no longer the center of the universe. It is also how your ancient Jews made the transition from polytheism, to henotheism and into a bastardized form of monotheism. When the old stuff does not work anymore, we create new stuff. 30,000 new Christian faiths attest to this.
So stop making unsubstantiated assertions. It’s just that easy. Ask for facts. A fact is a fact is a fact. Einstein did not diminish Newton’s Laws of gravity, but rather, looked at gravity differently. We now have two theories and both are completely workable. Both are probably wrong, but they work. We can use them to circumnavigate the universe. And when we come up with a better understanding of gravity, we will add that to the mix. The fact is, there is something out there we call gravity, and we are trying to understand it. It behaves in predictable ways in certain predictable circumstances and those are the facts. Can you show the same level of understanding in regard to any God idea? I’ll save you the time. No you can’t. God ideas are not supported by FACTS.
What you “SEE” in front of you is well reasoned. Your interpretation of what you see is where you are going amiss. Just because you interpret what you see, this way or that way, does not make it so. This is why (Specifically why) science relies on independent verification. Two people, doing the same experiment, under the same conditions must come to the exact same conclusions or something is wrong. More research is needed. When we have doen enough experiments and the results are consistent enough, we can build a successful model to help us understand the world around us. That’s how it works. Science does not give you truths (Religion does that.) Science builds models to help us understand what is going on.
The stupidest idea you could ever have is to embrace 'FAITH." There is nothing in 'FAITH" that leads to 'TRUTH." There is not a thought on the planet, a religion, a political idology, a philosophy, that can not be held to be true based on ‘FAITH.’ The zealots of the world are many and they believe in everything from crystial magic, to Big Foots. They believe in government conspiracies, alien abductions, spirits, souls, chakras, evil spirits, good and bad luck, and all manner of nonsense. They believe it all based on stepping away from reason and adopting ‘FAITH.’ Faith is the panacea of the weak minded. It is the comfort zone for those unwilling to admit that they really don’t know.
No one has to prove he isn’t real. This is a shifting of the burden of proof. The fact remains, you have no evidence at all that the “Jesus Christ” (The character as described in the bible) is real. A man walking on water? Orion did that 1500 years before Jesus and it was well known in the mythology of the time. Raising the dead? Who didn’t raise the dead during the first century? Curing the blind and the lame. Some of the oldest stage tricks in the world. Did Jesus do anything at all that was not done by another god before him? Even dying and rising had been done before Jesus time. There is nothing unique to the Jesus story. What’s worse is that this magic man managed to wander around doing all manner of miracles, and never have a single word written about him. Nothing. No source contemporary to his life ever said a word about him. This is despite the fact that he stopped the sun in the sky and cause zombies to walk the streets. All you have are stories that were written decades after his death by people who never met him and never saw him. You have myths, and little else. Where is this Jesus you speak of?
NO! You are a person who is latched onto “FAITH” and “BELIEF” because you are scared shitless of the dark. The idea of not knowing scares the shit out of you. So, you take comfort in your fantasy of some all knowing magical flying sky daddy, who also happens to be your best friend and listens to you when you talk to him. And you turn all your fears over to him and pretend that you don’t have to deal with them. Guess what. On the day you wake from your stuperous dream, the real world is still out her waiting for you. But its worse. You are going to find that you have been hiding under a rock. You have failed to grow. You have failed to develop mentally and emotionally specifically beccause of your reliance on ‘FAITH’ and unwillingness to explore the world around you. You are thwarting your own growth and development.
Hell, a Christian invention to scare their brand of believers into following Christian dogma. You do realize there is no Hell in the Jewish tradition. No suffering pits of fire. Satan in the old testament is an angel who does Gods bidding. Like I said, poor scared Christian. Afraid to look at the world around you. Hiding behind 'FAITH." Just like every other religious belief on the planet.
Think of how lucky you are to have been born in the right country and in the right place to just happen to worship the right God., I mean, you don’t have to worry about all the other religions that have Hells. What happens if Islam is right? They have as much faith in Muhammad as you do in Jesus. You do understand that you are going to burn and be tortured in Islamic hell. The * Baháʼí Faith also has a hell, but your Jesus thing will protect you right? Your faith is stronger than their faith? Some versions of the Hindu and Buddhist faiths have Hells. Why are you not worried about these. Certainly you qualify being the heathen nonbeliever that you are. Sorry, was that a scary bettime story? Pull the covers back up over your head, recite the Lord’s Prayer, and go back to sleep. Go back to peaceful sleep. All is well, Jesus is with you. Just have ‘Faith.’ Be exactly like the Muslim, the Hindu, the Buddhist, the Zorastrian, the Mormon, the Scientologists, The Nuwaubains, Railists, Jediists, or any other ‘FAITH BASED BELIEF SYSTEM’ on the planet. You are ‘RIGHT,’ You have the ‘TRUTH.’ The only ‘TRUTH.’ And everyone else is wrong, sinful, filthy, and bound for the pits of hell. “I PITTY THE PETTINESS OF YOUR THOUGHT PROCESS.”
When you demonstrat 1. That there is a god. 2. That the god is worth trusting. Then we can talk. That piece of shit that runs about killing babies, wiping out entire cultures, forcing women to eat their youn, and generally butchering everyone he comes in contact with, IS NOT A GOD WORTH TRUSTING. He even lies to you about killing his own son who is not his son but himself who does not actually die but goes on to live eternally just as he always knew he would. WTF kind of a god is that? He creates mankind and being all knowing, he knows man is going to sin. So he kills off everyone because they sin and begns again. Your God of the Bible is an idiot. The bible itself is a textbook fo God’s failures. He fails over and over and over again. If this is your idea of a trusting god. No thank you.
No. My own reason has little to do with it. There are thousands and thousands of people who came before me who addressed theses same problems. I read, I study, and unlike you, I question and enquire. I listen and I explore. And once again, unlike you, when I am wrong, I suck it up and make changes in my life, my beliefs, and in my opinions. That is called growing and maturing. Something you will never do as you hide behind 'FAITH."
Right about what? The fact that someone uttered something right does not make him a god. Do you think Jesus actually said something that was not said centuries before him. “Love thy Neighbor.” Leviticus chapters 17-26 is known as the Holiness Code. ANCIENT HEBREWS: v. 18, with “And you shall love your fellow man as yourself.” Possibly the earliest affirmation of the maxim of reciprocity, reflecting the ancient Egyptian goddess Ma’at appears in the story of “The Eloquent Peasant” which dates to the Middle Kingdom of Egypt (c. 2040–1650 BCE): "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to make him do. This proverb embodies the *do ut des principle. A Late Period papyrus contains an early negative affirmation of the Golden Rule: “That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another.” NOTHING JESUS TAUGHT CAN NOT BE FOUND IN AN EARLIER KNOWN MANUSCRIPT.
Now pull that blanket up tight to your chin and go back to sleep. Back to sweet restfull sleep.
3 Likes
lol something tells me you already know the definition for atheism. Come on man! 
I think I said too much… chased the chew toy away. LOL
1 Like
Nope, it’s Shelly’s fault this time. You’re off the hook, Cog. I saw it. Uranium specifically blamed Sheldon. Dang-it! And I didn’t even get a chance to respond to him. Oh, well, I might just go ahead and reply to one of his many “amazing” remarks, anyway. You know, for the sake of those who read but don’t participate.
1 Like