Actually, it would be an unevidenced scientific claim. Where is this evil one speaks of, outside of a subjective observation on the part of an independent observer who by all standards I am aware of would be unable to quantify or generalize his assertion into an epistemology capable of predicting further instances of ‘evil.’
David is on his game today. Objective moral Standards. Measurable and predictable.
Sid is actually arguing for moral dictates from an amoral being who inspired two books of ‘Do as I say and not as I do, to be moral.’ There is no more subjectivity in choosing ‘Well Being’ as a source for morality, than there is choosing which god and then which religious sect to follow. A magic man in the sky, dictating morality and not living morally itslef is complete bullshit.
@Cognostic That was just the prelude.
Now it is time to do a thought experiment and measure objective versus subjective.
If your child is unruly, would you take your offspring outside of town and stone that child to death?
Since you are most likely not in jail, my assumption is you would not. But the moral rules from your god are specific:
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
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King James Version
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
If the response/excuse is “I follow jesus …” then I remind you of this passage:
Matthew 5:18
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
In other words, directly stated by jesus, was that he would abide by the old testament rules.
OK, you do not agree with that passage about killing your child. Good for you, you have stepped outside of the narrow confines of your objective morals and applied your own subjective standards. You are a good person, you are better than your god.
What happened here? You stepped outside of the objective moral standards you practice and praise, and applied your own subjective standards. You do it, I do it, we all do it. We all pick and choose what we believe is the correct moral path.
@Sid The difference between you and I is that you still cling to a brutal and obsolete set of moral standards, believing they have all the answers. But in practice, if a moral rule makes you uncomfortable or you oppose it, you reject it and fall back on your own personal subjective standards.
I just do not begin by following any on the biblical moral rules, I lean on the standard of well being. My reference point, my anchor to morality.
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Christians don’t realize they cherry-pic the morality they choose to follow from their books of horrific inhuman amoral acts. Hey SID! I love you so much that I have created two special rooms for you in my house. If you move in right away and follow all my rules, i will let you live in the first room and eat cake and ice cream forever. If you don’t, I will track you down against your will, toss you into the second room and torture you for all eternity. You had your chance you fucking asshole… but I love you. It is an act of love. So die bitch.
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But since incredibly beautiful and spontaneous acts of Love are experienced by countless people each and every day around the globe ………………. therefore God must exist - see how that works ? The argument works both ways .
Ballroom Dancing Hot dog eating competition
@Sid There are over 200 different christian denominations in the USA. Every one of them is derived from just one source, the bible. There are even more than one fundamentalist sect, and they claim to follow the word of the bible literally.
So when one proclaims that they get their morals from the bible, yes, they can reference the bible, but they cherry-pick what fits within their moral views, and ignore others (e.g. Deuteronomy 21:18-21).
That standard even you reference comes from your own subjective process. You use a subjective process to determine what objective rules you will follow.
I guess that is a no.
Wrong.
Quite simply, both sets of phenomena can occur regardless of whether or not a god type entity exists.
However, the existence of suffering and malice refute assertions about an infinitely benevolent god type entity.
Indeed, that’s one of the trends we notice about mythology fanboys - they point to such entities and phenomena as sunsets and flowers, as purported “proof” of their cartoon magic man, but completely ignore, for example, the existence of Onchocerca volvulus or Dracunculus medinensis.
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So who defines what “Evil “ is ? Can you prove that it exists ?
I do not define “evil” as a “thing”. Evil is the result of unethical or immoral actions.
For example: because of my (hypothetical) addiction to heroin, I attack an old lady, rob her of her money (just $20) and kill her. It was not evil that motivated me, evil is the result of my actions. That word is just a descriptor.
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So what you describe as being “evil” is only a personal opinion.
Again, “because evil exists” is a bad example for an argument against a creator . Sid
Everything is a personal opinion. You name any subject, we all have differing opinions on that subject. That is the glory of freedom, to be able to have your own opinion, not blindly follow the dogma of a fascist dictatorship.
There is a valid argument for a creator? Oh wait, it must be some long convoluted exercise in mental gymnastics that still falls short of any proof. One should assume that if there is a god, it would be a very simple proof.
Here is an elephant … see?
Where’s the proof for evil ?
What evil? Demonstrate that anything called evil exists ouside of a personal opinion. I don’t see it existing outside of a religious opinion unless Hollywood is trying to use it like a preacher to scare the shit out of an audience. (FYI - Proof is a mathmatis term. You are looking for ‘Evidence.’ )
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Isn’t that the point ?
The assertion that “ because evil exists” is in fact unverifiable and is therefore a bad example to use as a argument against a creator .
It is the label we assign to unethical or immoral actions.
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I will address the last part first. I do not have to use any argument against any creator. You are the one asserting there is one, thus the burden of proof is on you to prove your god. All you are doing is making a very lame attempt to reverse the burden of proof.
Let us examine this statement … “The assertion that “ because evil exists” is in fact unverifiable”
Now I shall copy and paste what I just stated in my previous post.
The assertion that “ because unethical or immoral actions exists” is in fact unverifiable.
@Sid Can you now unpack this revised statement and see where your argument fails?
The only thing I have asserted is that the argument you posted as “proof” against a creator is a bad argument and doesn’t hold water . Anything else is your conjecture.
Fair enough. Even though you did not provide a connect or link to my argument (no idea when or where that happened and I’m not going to waste time looking back to find anything)) for the sake or argument I will concede it was a fail.
So what?
You still have to prove your god.
My inability to disprove your god does not automatically qualify the god argument as valid or successful.