Supernaturalism

I really don’t want to debate this question as much as discuss it but there is no such category available in the drop down list, so please forgive me if I don’t engage in formal arguments about the topic.

IAC, and not to be overly simplistic or stereotypical, but it’s my observation that atheists tend to be rationalistic materialists who believe that logic and science are the best framework for investigating the observable cosmos.

However, it seems to me that this position necessarily excludes one’s ability to study things that have no physical or falsifiable component such as feelings, desires, motivations, ideas, intuitions, humor, etc., and that these “things” are therefore, at least in some sense supernatural. Not in the mysterious, Casper the Ghost or Harry Potter manner but in the fact that they cannot be explored, and therefore explained, in any scientific method or using any conventional language.

Further, and given that these intangibles limit one’s ability to study what may be the most important element of our existence, as well as the motivations of any being who might be called our creator, isn’t it reasonable to conclude that science, or scientism-that is, the belief that science will one day be able to logically explain everything-might not the be best way to go at the question of who put us here, and why he, she, it or they did so?

IOW, wouldn’t an a priori acceptance of the possibility of idealism, combined with the fact that some things are un- or supernatural in the physical sense which cannot be investigated scientifically, be a prerequisite for studying-and perhaps eventually understanding-any entity who might be referred to as god?

(I had to look up a priori but I think I used it correctly in that last sentence?!?!:wink:)

Not always, but anyway what else is there that can come close to science’s success in helping us understand objective reality?

Well I don’t accept this is a position, firstly you are making several unevidenced assumption, and certainly you’d need to offer some other objective method that can study reality successfully, you’d also need to demonstrate that those phenomena can’t be investigated by science, for example as emerging properties of the human brain, and in a broader sense of human physiology. As it seems to me you are the one dismissing the ability of that method in this instance, when vast evidence demonstrates through it’s many successes how efficacious it is at studying the natural physical world.

That strikes me as an argumentum ad ignorantiam argument, your claim requires sufficient objective evidence, you don’t get to imply it is true because of the lack of alternative evidence and or explanation, but poor reasoning aside, there is a vast amount of objective evidence that those emptions are natural phenomena, as they are only ever evidence to occur in the presence of a functioning human brain.

a) This is untrue.

b) Even were it true it is fallacious to assume without evidence that your claim they are supernatural is true, because we lack alternative evidence.

I don’t accept your claim for the reasons already stated, and this claim: “what may be the most important element of our existence” strikes me as subjective as well.

You’re now tacking on an unevidenced assumption any creator exists, worse still we know for an objective fact that humans were not created, but have evolved slowly over time, as have all living things, and your profile says agnostic, and this is now also looking dubious in light of this claim.

Straw man, who has made any such claim? generally I see this straw man come from theists and religious apologists who have an axe to grind with science. I don’t see the claim used by atheists. That said science is our best method by far for increasing our understanding of objective reality. If you want to claim this includes the supernatural then you will need to properly evidence that claim. Certainly with something more than assertion that amount to an argumentum ad ignorantiam argument. Not having a natural explanation for something does not in any way suggest it is supernatural, that’s fallacious reasoning.

No, it just amounts to an unevidenced assumption, based here on poor reasoning.

You did, what you did not explain is why anyone would accept anything, a priori? This is simply saying it is reasonable to accept things before any evidence is available to support it, the best way to describe that is subjective bias.

I think at base what you want is for things to be the way you wish them to be rather than the way that they are.

Sometimes this involves just not knowing everything and being able to sit with that. The appeal of holy books is that they lay everything out for you to “just believe” so that you think you have no gaps in your knowledge.

I remember sitting on my tractor taking a break from mowing some guy’s lawn. I was 16. And I was congratulating myself on having (so I thought!) stumbled upon the Meaning of Everything via the Bible and now all I had to do was remain true to that and everything would be fine.

That is idealism on steroids, with a nice side helping of triumphalism.

It didn’t go well. YMMV.

Yes science and reason have limits. So what. They are the best tools we have at our disposal.

Science answers, generally, “how” rather than “should” questions. What one should do, or how one should manage or response to what one feels, is the realm of philosophy, properly used to distill human experience into general principles so that hopefully individuals don’t have to keep making the same mistakes. That also is an imperfect tool, but I will take observing what supports human flourishing based on observation and experience any day over trying to force fit it into an authoritarian / divine command framework.

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Welcome DaimonDog54,

You’ve posted a relatively long post and as is usual, Sheldon is here to pick it apart, bit by bit. Personally, i don’t like that approach, so I tend to focus on one thing - this caught my eye:

How are you supposed to study something that has no physical or falsifiable component? How do you figure out how it works? If you have an explanation that you think explains the thing, how do tell if you got it right?

Experience tells us that you can’t - which is why science and math exist. They are repeatable and demonstrative. Science allows us to show others how something works.

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And I’d add that subjective experiences are observable and studyable far more than @DaimonDog54 is giving it credit for. We have for example the DSM to tell us what is functional or dysfunctional behavior and perception and we have science to give us some idea why dysfunction occurs and what to do about it.

We also have philosophical and even religious schools with fewer assumptions than religions based on alleged divine revelation. A Christian will tell you to strive for the ideal while a Buddhist will tell you to let go of such illusions and all the “grasping” for “satisfactoriness” it involves and learn about contentment in preference to happiness, to strive for meaningful ideals like “lovingkindness” and “nonviolence” in preference to acquisition and status and membership in the correct in-group.

As unbelievers we are free to borrow from any observational system and test whether it works/proves out or not. This is what is meant by “freethinking”. Relatively speaking most Christians are in a little box of their own making and have much, much less to work with.

I don’t get quantum physics but it’s my understanding that one of its basic principles is that observation changes that which is being observed, at least at the microscopic level. On a macroscopic level, I’ve seen some people laugh at things which make other people cry. IOW, I wouldn’t be the first to question the notion of human objectivity. So the alternative view of reality you seem to be looking for to explain scientific success may have already come from science itself.

That is, it may be that reason and science work is because that’s what we expect and demand from them, not because this quality is inherent to either.

For example, most of us see time as moving in one direction but as I understand it, there is nothing in any of the math to show that time cannot go both ways. So is the unidirectional movement of time that most of us perceive a universal law or is this something we impose on nature for no reason other, perhaps, than that we all stay at least reasonably in sync?

Are you trying to make my points for me?:sweat_smile:

I do agree with you that @Sheldon ’s approach, while not wrong on several points, while possibly being arguable on others, seems more like a formal debate than a pleasant conversation that I’d like to have.

Just sayin’….

This response is not relevant to your claim and my question, as you’re not offering any method as an alternative to science? You accused atheists (for some inexplicable reason) of excluding other methods for things you wrongly claimed were beyond scientific study, but when asked what alternative you’d use, you offer none.

Relevance?

I am not looking for any such thing, you implied that people were excluding areas of study because they are beyond science as a method, a) this was an unevidenced claim, b) it was and is untrue at least as far as the examples you offered, and c) the fact we don’t have a natural explanation for something does not in any way imply it is supernatural, this is in fact fallacious reasoning that uses an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

Science does work, this is demonstrably the case, it is demonstrated over and over in it’s astonishing results. You are the one claiming things exist beyond the purview of science, as it happens what you listed were not, but you also offered no alternative method to science, and when asked, you are now going off into vague tangents.

Like this then, what has this to do with your claim about the supernatural, and science being unable to study certain human emotions, this is what I mean by vague tangents.

On the contrary, he is trying to explain why science as a method, is so astonishingly successful at studying objective reality.

Debate and conversation are not mutually exclusive, and if you’re expecting to make claims and draw conclusions then they will not go unchallenged. You also brought this to an atheist debate forum, and included an accusation about atheists in your OP, do you imagine anyone here views claims about the supernatural coming here as a coincidence?

So lets start again, do you accept that the emotions you cited can be studied by science as entirely natural phenomena, even if our knowledge is far from complete?

Do you have an alternative method to science, if so what is it and what evidence suggests it is better at studying anything than science, if not then I am not sure what your Op is trying to say about science?

Do you understand that atheism is not a claim, and makes no claims, it is solely the lack or absence of belief in any deity or deities.

Maybe if you answer those questions honestly, a discussion will be worth having, but you can’t make claims then ignore objections to those claims, then expect a friendly discussion.

anyone who believes that is out of their mind

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yeah, because you have to bombard something with light to observe it. Newflash: bombarding something with light can change it; just like bombarding someone with bullets or bricks will “change” them.

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I didn’t accuse anyone of anything other than to express my observations or opinions and would rather not restart the conversation on the grounds that I did.

If you find that dishonest, or irrelevant, so be it.

So……..

You’re not going to answer his questions?

These functions are what one would call emergent properties of a sufficiently complex system, in this case a brain of sufficient size and complexity, fed with input from the sensors connected to it (eyesight, hearing, smell, touch, etc.), and able to control the connected effectors (muscles), thus creating feedback loops. All this boil down to a functioning brain and brain chemistry. The feelings and functions are all functions thereof. Remove one, and they disappear.

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If you won’t address any of the questions about your claims, then there isn’t much to discuss. Discussion requires reciprocity. For example the idea that not having a natural explanation for something means it is supernatural is poor reasoning, it implies an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. I also pointed out that the things you claimed could not be studied by science, can in fact be studied by science as natural phenomena, as emergent properties of a functioning human brain.

Perhaps leaving atheism out of your assertions would also be helpful, as atheism is not a claim or belief, materialism and rationalism are very different from atheism in that sense.

While I may fall into this category, the definition of atheism is a lack of conviction that God (or gods) exist.

There are atheists who still believe in the supernatural. Many Buddhists are technically atheists, yet believe in karma and other supernatural ideas.

As for supposedly “intangible” properties like love, emotions, etc. being supernatural . . . well, nothing is further from the truth.

As social animals, things like loyalty, love, etc. are neccesary for survival if we are to function collectively, so it isn’t surprising that these capacities are hard-wired into human neural anatomy from natural selection.

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There’s also in my observation quite a bit of exceptionalism for Homo Sapiens wired into these assumptions about human capacity for emotional connection and the like. Time and again I find examples of “lower” animals having very definite analogs to human feelings. I don’t think humans have some je ne sais quoi that evidences a special spiritual quality such as the possession of a soul or spirit or whatever. Even our intellect isn’t all that special. It’s arguably at a higher amplitude, certainly in the sense that we have built civilizations from it with varying degrees of success and endurance.

I think many theists need humans to be unique in this way to help evidence a unique relationship to God (and at times a unique and even responsibility-free role at the apex of creation). So they ignore anything that doesn’t follow this exceptionalist narrative.

I suppose some might argue that in saying this I’m degrading humans but I think it’s not that so much as elevating other species and putting us into a humble perspective of not being some sort of “top dog” predator of specially beloved of God or something, but rather having a greater responsibility to the extent that we do in fact have greater capabilities. With much power comes much responsibility.

The Bible posits a hierarchy in which we humans were “made just a little lower than the angels” and in fact have a spiritual connection that angelic beings lack and “long to look into”. I’d argue that humans can and should afford dignity and innate rights to each other and indeed to all beings, but this sort of self-aggrandizing narrative that Christianity promotes is catnip for assholes, of which there are far too many in the world.

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There is SO much wrong to be addressed here.

Item one: there is ZERO evidence for the so-called “supernatural”, which is merely an apologetic elision erected to try and make “magic” sound less childish than it is.

EVERY TIME a so-called “supernatural” hasis has been asserted to be “necessary”, in order to provide an “explanation” for a real world observable, scientists have subsequently tossed this nito the bin, and replaced with with a genuine explanation based upon testable natural processes.

Perhaps the canonical example is provided by lightning, a phenomenon originally asserted to require the existence of an angry god of one sort or another. Except that Benjamin Franklin decided to fly a kite in a thunderstorm, and by doing so, established that lightning was nothing but static electricity write large, of the same sort that was known to Classical Greek civilisation. Indeed, the Greeks knew that rubbing pieces of amber would eventually allow those pieces of amber to pick up small pieces of paper, and were aware of electrostatic forces, even if they didn’t have an explanation for them. For that matter, physicists named the electron in honour of this - “ἤλεκτρον” is the Greek word for amber.

This precedent - namely the replacement of “supernatural” pseudo-explanations with genuine scientific explanations grounded in testable natural processes - has NEVER been broken.

Item two: Several of the real world observables, that have been hilariously asserted above to lack scientific explanations, DO have scientific explanations. But as usual, the tendency of certain individuals to lack the diligence to check this has come to the fore.

Whenever the usual suspects among the mythology fanboys, come stomping in here, confidently asserting that scientists don’t have an explanation for love, I laugh sardonically. Why? Because I’ve known for decades that the peptide hormone oxytocin plays a key role in the launching of behaviours such as pair bonding, sexual attraction and maternal bonding to offspring in relevant organisms.

Indeed, every human emotion has a basis in brain chemistry. Aggression? Adrenaline affecting a subsystem of the brain known as the R-complex. Social cohesion? Dopamine and serotonin exerting an effect in the limbic system.

Oh, and as for ethics, I’ve covered this at length here, and explained why wethics doesnt need a cartoon magic man in the sky, or any other brand of magic. I’ve also provided in another post, a raft of relevant peer reviewed scientific paper citations destroying infantile wibble about “morality”.

Item three: a word needs to be said about the reach of scientific theories at this juncture.

This is because science has been, to use the words of one biographer of Nietzsche, terrifyingly successful at providing detailed explanations for real world observables, that work, and that possess predictive power on a scale that mythologies and their authors cannot even fantasise about.

But, there are limits. And those of us with the most thorough science education understand those limits.

At some point, it is entirely possible that science will encounter a suitable set of fundamental entities and interactions, that act as the foundations for all real world observables, and that the existence of those entities and interactions will be a simple brute fact, beyond which we cannot go. At some point, there will be things that simply are, and at that point, science will come to a stop.

No amount of wibbling about the “supernatural” will either alter this, or provide anything other than an epistemological dummy for the infantile to suck upon. If we as a species survive long enough to conduct the relevant science, we may hit that buffer, and the science train will halt at that point. But we won’t reach that point, if we allow our species to be distracted by garbage assertions masquerading as “metaphysical sophistication”.

If you wish to assert that there is a better method for dealing with the world than the scientific method, you have a colossal uphill task ahead of you. You have to demonstrate the following:

[1] That your method is reliable - in other words, it doesn’t generate obvious falsehoods;

[2] That your method works when applied to entities and interactions of known provenance, and provides a proper, coherent and rigorously defensible alternative to the testable natural processes already associated with said entities and interactions (once again, magic won’t cut it);

[3] That your method then provides a similarly coherent and rigorously defensible answer for entities and interactions that are supposedly “outside” the remit of science.

Most of the people who wibble about the “supernatural” are too lazy to bother with that level of hard work.

That’s the bottom line.

I found that prayer – even when reserved for things that were absolutely crucial to the thriving or even survival of people – was ineffective / unreliable / non-reproducible. God’s ineffable will might go either way, you could try to beg or influence him, and he might or might not listen, much less act – but that was about it.

Now I might go to the doctor tomorrow and be told that I have, say, an inoperable glioblastoma in my brain that will kill me within six months, and nothing can be done other than to make me comfortable (for some given value thereof). But at least that’s honest, and there’s hope down the road that this will be curable someday. It’s reality, without the empty promises.

Of course I might also be told I have this or that illness, the fatality of which can be short-circuited easily. Indeed I am a diabetic, and would be dead by now if I had been born 200 years or less ago. So at least science can sometimes substantively and usefully help. Not because it’s capricious, or moody, or ineffable, but because it has figured out some things and not others.

I’d much rather die of something beyond the reach or help of science and technology, than of something that is not at all beyond the reach of an all powerful, all knowing and all benevolent being but who might not be arsed to help me.

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That’s not the intuition meant. It is the bombardment of an observable entity with human consciousness which alters it’s state from “unaffected” to “rigid” and “observed”.

Sheldon, if you didn’t uphold the rigour of argument here on AR, I don’t know who would. Some might attempt, some might come close, but none would impose such veracity of argument on those who dare venture into these atheist shark ridden waters. Tip of the hat, old boy.

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However, as the below link outlines

When consciousness is facilitated by DMT there is a a stable, repeatable, and reliable observation of “code” to be seen underlying all material phenomenon.

The objection is that observers must be on some dose of DMT to observe the phenomenon. However the explanation accounts for consciousness as a phenomenon which interacts with external reality - something we all admit to naively.

Accounting for how the code can be reliably observed via DMT assisted consciousness is the real question which faces those who actually take the phenomenon seriously. Then and only then can we account for what the phenomenon is.

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