@Cr2187 Holy Christ on a saltine cracker with peanut butter! Could you POSSIBLY write a longer saga? Jesus, dude. You realize, I hope, you can break down your posts to respond to each of us individually? Just something to keep in mind for future posts. Anyway, since others are handling the worst parts of your blabbering, I’ll just try to focus on your replies to me. (IF I can find them all in that over-inflated thesis you wrote.)
I will try to explain this again, since you apparently failed to comprehend my first explanation. EVEN AS A LITTLE KID, none of what I was ever taught from the bible ever made sense. Too many inconsistencies. Too many contradictions. Too many outlandish stories that defied rational thinking and logic that I noticed even at the tender age of 7 and 8 years old. Example: One Sunday I’m told being a good person and doing good things for other will help you get to heaven, while doing bad things will get you sent to hell. Pretty straightforward. But then the next Sunday I’m being told you have to fully believe in God/Jesus to get into heaven, regardless of how good a person you are. And then another Sunday, I’m being told, “If you are baptized you will go to heaven REGARDLESS of anything you ever do, good or bad.” And I should note that all of these different conditions would change in some form or fashion depending on who was telling you and what the immediate circumstances were. Therefore, while YOU might believe YOUR interpretation of how to get to heaven, just remember there are several THOUSAND different Christian sects/denominations that would argue that with you.
As for “what made me” an atheist, it ain’t complicated. The Holy Bible is reportedly THE PERFECT WORDS OF GOD. (Despite the fact there are multiple versions of it that have been revised, translated, and interpreted countless different ways over the course of several centuries.) Yet, this PERFECT BOOK that was supposedly dictated by an ALL-KNOWING and ALL-POWERFUL entity reads as though it was written by an amateur writer on an acid trip. Is there some sort of god out there that is the creator of all that we are? I honestly have no idea. However, I’m certainly not going to lose anymore sleep in my life fretting over some inept imaginary entity as described in the bible. So until that god gives me some solid reason to believe it exists, then I will continue to live a good life as though it doesn’t. And even IF that god of the bible does exist, it does not mean I will worship it in any way.
Okay, I think I saw another reply from you. Hang on…
So, basically, you are telling me your god is NOT all-powerful? Because they were innocent little children at the time. Guilty of nothing. So, if he KNEW they would turn out “evil”, then why couldn’t he simply change their parents into better people to raise the children better? Or would that have been too difficult? Yep, better just to drown ALL their sorry asses, even though they had done nothing wrong and had NO IDEA what was happening. He had the power to change things to keep from killing innocent children (along with every other creature on the planet), yet he preferred to slaughter them all instead. Yessir, that god of yours is certainly an incredibly intelligent, benevolent, and loving motherfucker. Who WOULDN’T want to worship a monster like that?
That’s all for now. I don’t really expect a response from you. As I said before, though, I reply to these primarily for the benefit of others who might read your inane explanations. If something else catches my attention later, I will respond to it when I can.
In your other posts you were treating it like it was a source of “evidence”. You’re still doing it. Even when you’re asked to provide evidence, you don’t.
Most Atheists are former Christians. You obviously don’t know that. You don’t seem to know a lot of things at all. You obviously don’t read your own Bible. Isn’t that a bit embarrassing for you seeing as you’re a Christian and I know this more than you?
[Revelation 20:10] And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
[Matthew 25:41]
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
[Matthew 13:40-42]
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[Mark 9:42-48]
“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, [where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.]read more.
If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, [where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
No we don’t. Your Bible is clearly stating hate and that it’s okay to murder people, murder children, murder newborns, abuse and murder women like they’re nothing, abuse and murder homosexuals, kill non believers, kill pagans, and kill anyone who “offends” your god. Your religion is immoral and I think you’re an immoral ass. It’s just mankind’s way of murdering groups of people they don’t like with the excuse that a god said it was moral and okay. There’s an absence of evidence of the existence of your deity and that’s evidence against the “god” claim. There’s also an absence of evidence for mermaids and Santa Claus. Even you Christians don’t believe in the existence of other deities.
Claim and Argumentum Ad Populum. The Bible is a claim, not evidence. Men wrote it and anyone can write a book and claim the events and characters in it are real. When there’s no evidence to back their lies, it is evidence against their claim.
What objective evidence can you demonstrate for the existence of any deity?
You can. But don’t expect people to think you’re intelligent for doing that. Those theories are strongly based on already existing empirical evidence, gathered data, and study. I don’t think you understand what that is. This argument is up there with with a person denying that whales exist. There’s data and empirical evidence that whales exist. It’s one of those deals where if you say whales don’t exist. Someone’s gonna think you’re pretty fuck’n stupid when you say that.
Argumentum Ad Ignorantiam.
There’s a stupid and you’re lying. You don’t get to tell us what Atheism is. It is the disbelief in deities and the rejection of religion. That’s the definition, look it up. There’s no where in Atheism that states Atheists believe in “nothing” I do not believe something came from nothing. You obviously fail to understand chemistry, Quantum Physics, Astrophysics, Natural selection, and evolution as those things are not nothing. Those things are designed to give us evidence and speak for themselves. Religion doesn’t do that.
You are shifting the Burden of Proof.
It is not my job or Atheist Republic’s job to prove or validate your “god” beliefs. That’s your job.
Are you saying your faith in your deity is really weak? Do you need an Atheist to hold your hand? Sorry buddy. Not gonna happen. You’ll get better from a Muslim.
Lie. I don’t believe you. You’re not presenting evidence. You’re just giving out more bullshit. You’re a Christian and all Christians will argue that god is real until they’re blue in the face without giving evidence. When we say evidence. We’re meaning Scientific Evidence where you go out and discover the existence of a deity, take samples and gather undeniable evidence, gather data and invent a science that can verify the existence of a deity like NASA does by sending out satellites to find planets and black holes.
You know what? I’ll make it easy for you. Can you to go out and demonstrate by summoning this deity, demonstrate the miracles promised by what your “Jesus” said in these scriptures. Can you do it?
Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” Matthew 17:20-21
John 14:12
12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
[Mark 16:18]
they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Oh…that’s right. You can’t.
Claim, Circular Reasoning, and Argumentum Ad Populum. Men wrote the Bible. That is an objective fact. There is no evidence that a god or magic man or his groupies told them to write it. What objective evidence can you offer for this claim?
Claim. What objective evidence can you demonstrate for the existence of Jesus?
That is evidence of a religious movement. Not evidence of a deity.
So was Muhammad. How do you feel about the Quran? Do you think Allah is real?
Muslims think your god is a fake. Hindus think your god is a fake. You feel the same way about their gods.
That’s not objective or empirical evidence and that’s not what I asked for. That is your religious indoctrination talking. You’re just parroting what you’ve been told. No, it doesn’t look like a deity or a designer made the universe.
This is you yet again trying to give a compelling argument and evading and deflecting your Burden of Proof. I don’t want your arguments. I want evidence that will pass in a “court of law” and you’re showing a repeated refusal to do that. It is not my fault that you fail to understand how science works. You obviously really fucking don’t understand science, PERIOD. The real answer for where the universe came from is WE DONT FUCKING KNOW. CHRISTIANS DON’T FUCKING KNOW. You all just think you do because a goat herder mythology said so.
I’ll ask again. What objective evidence can you demonstrate for the existence of any deity?
You either can or you cannot. Simple answer. You’ve pretty much argued this into an Argumentum Ad Nauseam. You’re ignoring what everyone here is telling you and you’re ignoring the FACTS. I’m about ready for the Mods to wipe their ass with you. It’s clear that you’re delusional and your mind is closed to everything else.
Wanna believe in “god claims” and silly “creationist” theories? Go ahead. But what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. I don’t buy your arguments. If there was objective evidence for your god’s existence. Everyone would believe it like it were common knowledge all over the world and it wouldn’t be considered a RELIGION. Did you ever think about that?
Were any modern day christians around in the first century to witness anything described in the new testament? How do you know it actually happened as described?
I doubt that will occur. While Cr2187’s posts are the stuff that sparks heated debate, he has conducted himself very well on a personal level. And that is what I embrace in this forum, an exchange of ideas and viewpoints.
I am a firm believer in rights, and one of them is the right to have an opinion and disagree. You have that right, and so does Cr2187.
Humans started meausring time; that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Time is the measured or measurable period during which an action, process, or condition exists or continues. So if you can say something starts now…and ends now, time exists.
the short answer is: the red shift shows us that galaxies are moving away from us.
the long answer:
Where did the matter come from? That is a great question;
I wonder where it could have come from if it weren’t created.
God only needed to come to earth once in Jesus Christ. God was much more active before Jesus because he was working in Israel. I think the fact that millions of people everywhere now believe in Jesus even after 2000 years in good evidence that God is still at work.
Yup because science says nothing comes from nothing, but it also shows that the universe had a beginning thus something must have always been here. To me, the only reasonable explanation is God.
the big bang theory fits with some things we see in our universe, but it doesn’t explain how they got here at all. Where did all the matter come from?
Thus something must have always existed, and it only makes sense that that something would be outside of our universe if it truly had a beginning.
As for the quantum vacuum, we know so little about this that it doesn’t provide any evidence, but even if this were true, the quantum vacuum itself is not nothing thus it still doesn’t answer where that quantum vacuum would come from.
I can’t wait. @Calilasseia give me your most solid evidence for macroevolution.
But we have this thing called history from which we can know Jesus existed, but there’s no document 13+ billion years old. Anything that far back is complete specualtion. Please give evidence that the universe is 13+ billions years old.
As I have already said, it’s not a god of the gaps argument. Basic philosphy shows us that the cause of the universe MUST BE outside of the universe, and it must be personal and intelligent because no impersonal force would just all of a sudden in the great void of space explode into everything.
Just because natural selection can correct information already there doesn’t explain how that new information got there.
The second law of thermodynamics is that entropy increases in all energy conversions. I don’t see your point.
Now you sent an article of natural selection which I completely agree with. Natural selection can pick out the best genetic information in a creatures genetic code and make it the most prominent, but there’s a limit to how far the genetic code can stretch. Natural selection doesn’t produce new information; it just gets rid of worse information.
you act like science is going to figure out how all the matter and energy that exists came from nothing. Then you’ll say “well I don’t believe it came from nothing” but at the same time you believe the universe had a beginning which implies there was no universe before that. So if the universe had a beginning, but the the matter and energy didn’t come from nothing then where did it come from? You can’t figure out a scientific explanation for that because you can’t do science without matter and energy to work with.
A little too lucky to atribute to chance. What I find most convincing is what I said ealier that the earth is not only perfect for life, but also perfert for observation to take place. There’s a point where trusting complete chance just isn’t rational.
What kind of selection process is present in premodial soup from which life supposedly came? Natural selection needs a living organism to fuel it.
Life is so complex that saying it arose from just the right chemicals in place is, according to distinguished astronomer Fred Hoyle, like saying that a tornado sweeping through a junk yard would make a boeing 747 airplane. It doesn’t matter if all the right parts are there; it’s so well put together that it will never put itself together. The argument that science will find an answer for the origin of life is essentially like saying 100 billion tornados in 100 billion junkyards will create an airplane. It’s simply never going to happen, but if you want it to happen bad enough, you can ignore reason and have faith that it’ll happen eventually.
My point: God has always existed because before the creation of the universe there was no time thus an eternal being makes sense.
@Tin-Man I do apologize for the length of that, but to be fair I’m one theist debating 10 or more atheists so I have a lot to respond to. Thanks for the advice; I’ll try and keep it shorter now.
Sounds to me like you’re just kicking the can further down the street. All this speculation on the origin and nature of god is just that–speculation. At least with the Big Bang, we have loads of evidence–for god you have nothing (except wishful thinking).
I get that. Totally understand. However, based on what I have seen so far, you are doing nothing but redundantly repeating over and over repeatedly again and again the same exact things to each individual but with slightly different wording as if you are saying something different each time, but you are not. Meanwhile, you have also sidestepped, deflected, or completely ignored the questions posed as to how YOUR GOD came into existence. On one hand you say, “The universe HAD TO come from something. Nothing can come from nothing.” Yet, when it comes to your god, you toss that statement aside and keep repeating, “Well, God has always existed.” Hate to break it to you, but you can’t have it both ways, Sport. Nobody here is buying it. So, as simple as you can, how did your god come into existence?
(On a side note, I would also be curious to know how you know there is such a thing as “outside the universe.” Sure, there is much speculation on the matter and a few hypotheses out there, but you seem to KNOW and have it all figured out. Please, enlighten us incompetent godless heathens.)
And that gets you ta an undocumented, unwitnessed jesus figure exactly how?
Your previous answer to me about the veracity of your “historical” evidence was infantile.
The only evidence is HEARSAY, and that gleaned from followers of the christ figure many years after the alleged events… Also not one reference contemporary to the Jesus figures alleged life.
The translation of Josephus second entry is debated, is it Brother “IN” Jesus (as in follower?) or brother “OF” an unspecified Jesus (most think it refers to a Jesus who was a priest at the high temple.)
Please refrain from touting such flimsy hearsay and unsupported claims in this or any public forum.
What you don’t address in your myopic search for reassurance is that yes, a “James” can be placed at the High Temple, in fact that is exactly where the Ebionites were founded and had their base until the latter part of the Second Century. Remember the Ebionites? One of the original Jewish cults of a jesus figure? A HUMAN jesus figure? Adoptionists to the core? Do some reading or at least ask this forum a question.
The fact that christian maessanaic cults existed in the early 1st century is not under dispute. The existence of a magic jesus figure as described in the modern gospels is improbable.
There is NOT ONE reference, contemporary to his alleged life, for a jesus figure as described in the gospels.
He wants you to spread the gospel, I assume? Why do you think Jesus talks to some and not others?
That’s quite obviously not the case in the above passage I quoted.
Other places where John 3:16 does not apply are found in Mark, where Jesus says “All men’s sins will be forgiven.” And elsewhere (Maybe in Mathew, where Jesus says “Be perfect - as your Father in Heaven is perfect.”
Hmm. Yea. Jesus’ “payment”. Are you referring to the three days he spent in Hell, or simply the torture he experienced on the cross?
And you didn’t answer, where that god would come from.
My point
We agree “nothing” has been evidenced to exist.
Time/space began with the expansion (Big Bang).
NO one knows what is before (how can this word even make sense) TIME/SPACE.
God of gaps. There is no evidence for god - unless you can offer some up.
YOU know so little about “quantum vacuum”. Your sources (religious) may say that BUT it’s not true.
Actually the 'Red Shift" shows us a ‘Red Shift’ and we interpret it as things moving away from us. It is the best interpretation we have at this time. It makes sense to us. But wouldn’t it be interesting to find another cause.
Halton Arp’s, intrinsic red shift, interpretation of cosmological redshift face flew in the face of big bang cosmology and caused him to be ostracized from using the large 200 inch telescope to make further observations. Giving a different explanation for redshift upset too many apple carts in Big Cosmology and instead of looking for truth like Halton Arp, Big Science chose to turn its head on observational fact.
According to Borchardt,Mr. Infinity, space is not empty and as light travels through space, it encounters resistance and therefor, by the time it gets to any observer, there will be a change – and in this case, it is frequency. This means that no matter where you are in Borchardt’s infinite universe, everyone everywhere will see redshift.
Fractal Geometry; One of the great questions in modern cosmology today is what is causing the apparent accelerating expansion of the universe. It has been recently discovered this property is not unique to the universe; trees also do it and trees are fractals. Can fractals offer insight to the accelerating expansion a property of the universe and more? Here is a link to an article that explains how fractal geometry can be used to explain the redshift that we currently observe in the universe.
“collective Knowledge” WTF are ;you on about now. Stop squirming and put up some evidence for the existence of your god or a half way decent why you would believe in something you admit that you can not demonstrate. Is there an argumet you have not tried yet? First Cause, complexity, a priori, why don’t you just jump to circular bullshit like presuppositionalism. When I argue for the existence of God, that’s the one I use.
I looked back on this thread and there are posts of me asking him to demonstrate objective evidence and he just ignores it and goes on and on. He’s really argued it into an Ad Nauseam to this point.
I don’t think he understands the terms “Demonstrate” with “evidence”. Which he will not do.
He obviously doesn’t understand empirical evidence. He’s demonstrated this by slamming the importance of science and treating it like a “belief”. Science is based entirely on EVIDENCE. Facts are not a fucking belief. The sooner he gets that the sooner we’re going to start getting somewhere.
He keeps asking the same questions. When he does that, it appears he has magical thinking. He doesn’t like the answers. So it’s like he thinks if he keeps asking in circles, we’re going to eventually tell him what he wants to hear by giving him an answer he’s going to accept. Well, that’s not going to happen.
magical thinking , the belief that one’s ideas, thoughts, actions, words, or use of symbols can influence the course of events in the material world. Magical thinking presumes a causal link between one’s inner, personal experience and the external physical world. Magical thinking | Psychology & Cognitive Development | Britannica.
How many ways does he want it explained to him? Does he just want all of us to give in and tell him that the sky is purple? It gets old after a while. It’s getting to the point that this whole debate feels like the annoying little kid in the back seat asking repeatedly “Are we there yet? are we there yet? huh huh huh?!?” and I’m done. I’ve asked him to give “court of law” based evidence and he just can’t deliver. At this point, I dismiss his entire bullshit argument.
@MrDawn Or is it that he sincerely believes this stuff and cannot comprehend an alternate explanation? The unfortunate part is that none of what he has presented is original or new, just copied and pasted from what other apologetics have stated.
And that is one of the many evils of religion, it strips away true thought, and forces one to just repeat what others have hammered into them.
How many times have I offered proof to counter “scientists state that the universe came from nothing”? Yet even a video from a respected scientist from Fermilabs means nothing to him. I do expect him to repeat this mantra.
Because in his world his faith even trumps the obvious truth.
All I will say to this is I’m very sorry you had such a bad Church because yes there are different opinions on things and some are right and some are wrong, but the ultimate idea remains the same: Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life; no gets to the Father except through him.
No I actually understand the Bible. For instance, those verse describe hell as an eternal fire yet 2 Peter 2:17 says “A gloom of darkness has been reserved for them” also describing hell. Wait a minute, how can you have an eternal fire and an eternal darkness? These are metaphors meant to show how terrible the absence of God is.
I would like you to give me a verse from the Bible that says it’s okay to murder and abuse people. There being stories of murder in the Bible isn’t the Bible condoning the actions.
You keep saying this anytime I quote a verse to make a theological point, but then you go and use verses from the Bible as well. That’s called hypocrisy.
We know whales exist because we can see them. On the contrary, macroevolution has never been observed and in my opinion evidenced to be possilbe. What we know about the big bang is that the universe started with some sudden event that sparked the expansion of the universe. I don’t think that’s contradictory to creation.
So if you don’t believe something came from nothing my question is where do you think it came from? If you don’t believe life came from a pile of chemicals where else did it come from? Where did our ability to understand those sciences come from? How can you trust your own thoughts if you’re just a robot controlled by the laws of physics?
You seem to have failed to understand. I agree the Bible is a claim, and I’m saying history agrees with the claim it makes.
To put it in the simplest terms, I see no possible way a fake movement or made up story would ever have had thousands of people instantly believing in it when the result of believing in it ment persecution. That’s what is different about the early Christianity movement than say the early muslim movement. The muslims didn’t face the same kind of persecution for their beliefs. They were rewarded. It’s not objective evidence; it’s just logic.
I agree there are many different opinions, and to figure out which one is true we need to look at the evidence. And I think the evidence supports Christianity best.
It’s called philosophy. You can’t do science without philosophy.
You could back and read the super long message I already sent about why I think creation shows design, but I’ll just shows you what really convinces me.
One of best empiracle evidences for God is DNA. DNA is essentially its own four letter language. DNA codes for the production of specific proteins by giving amino acid sequences. A protein is a linear strand of amino acids. Because of the forces between amino acids, the protein folds in a very irregular but specific shape to fit with other specific molecules in the cell. Now because the protein needs to fold into a specific shape based on the amino acid sequence, the amino acid sequence has to be just right for the protein to be able to perform it’s function (and proteins are absolutley essential to life). That necessary, specific amino acid sequence comes from the sequence of nucleotides in DNA.
So DNA has the perfect sequence of “letters” on it for proteins to be made and life to function. Well how did DNA get organized so perfectly? DNA couldn’t have evolved from some evolutionary process since you need DNA to even start life.
Bill Gates says DNA is a like a software program, but far more complex than anything we have ever been able to build. Well any software program needs a programmer, how much more so if it’s more complex than anything we’ve ever been able to build.
Briefly, the other thing that convinces me of God is the design I’ve seen in biology. If you look back to when I talk about the flagellum and the cell, all the parts of these different, tiny molecular machines work perfectly together in a way where if one small piece of the entire machine was missing, the whole thing would break down. This shows not only that life is extremely well pieced together, but it also couldn’t have slowly evolved because each and every one of the parts of these molecular machines are necessary to the machine functioning at all thus they must have all been created at the same time.
If you have enough faith, you can ignore this saying science will figure it out one day, but to me that’s just irrational. I don’t have that kind of faith.
You act like if God decended from heaven right now, everyone would imediately believe in him. I highly doubt that. If you saw an angel coming down from the sky, you would find some natural explanation for it. No matter how obvious it was, I doubt it would make you believe.
I think if you were honest you would agree that you don’t want to believe in a God. People don’t want to believe in God because that would mean there is a higher power that they are accountable to.
The evidence for God is very good in my opinion but a. people are decieved into thinking there’s no evidence for him and b. people ignore the evidence preffering to have faith in a naturalistic explanation being found one day than what’s obvious in my opinion.
You know 2 Peter is a 3rd Century forgery? …I mean, you do know that? If not, please do some meaningful research then get back to me.
Irreducible complexity?The flagellum? Oh, please, you are joking. oh…you are not…Callissea…are you watching? please put this guy out of his ignorant misery or I shall have to reproduce one of your posts that so eloquently shows the mythological fanbois errors in sharp relief.
Jesus, dude. You realize, I hope, you can break down your posts to respond to each of us individually? Just something to keep in mind for future posts. Anyway, since others are handling the worst parts of your blabbering, I’ll just try to focus on your replies to me. (IF I can find them all in that over-inflated thesis you wrote.)
the big bang theory fits with some things we see in our universe, but it doesn’t explain how they got here at all. Where did all the matter come from?
(or without demonstrable evidence)