I want to sign out of the churc

Debate Room
1

I want to sign out of the church

And so I know that every religion is nonsense invented by man … But I have some internal fear that the act of apostasy also means breaking the bond with this original God, if there is any other non-repygijnym … in this matter I am an agnostic whether the act of apostasy will not make me feel some discomfort? perhaps the point is to assume a certain probability of a God who has nothing to do with religious superstition and the act of apostasy will mean a conscious withdrawal from him? I know I talk weird especially since I feel atheist to religious gods and agnostic to some sense of metaphysics which may be hidden somewhere … What would you do if I wa

2

Uh, howdy, Red. Hope you don’t mind my saying, but your “question(s)” ain’t quite clear. What exactly are you asking? What advice are you seeking? I would love to help, but I don’t want to make any assumptions based on what you posted. Please clarify.

Meanwhile, there is one part that struck me. Specifically:

To what “original God” are you referring? As for that “internal fear” of breaking away from religion, I can tell you from personal experience that is a natural part of the process. Trust me, though, it will pass soon enough. And the more you learn, the quicker that fear will pass.

There IS one other thing, however. I notice you use the term “agnostic” as if it is some sort of “safety net.” Well, hate to break the news to you, but we are ALL agnostic (theists AND atheists) in regards to whether or not god(s) exist. Just figured you should know that.

Oh, and it looks like your OP got cut off at the end. You might want to correct that.

Edit to add: What the hell is “non-repygijnym”???

3

Yeah, fear can come from something as simple as just stop praying. When I was a kid, I was told to do my evening prayer before going to sleep, even though I didn’t like it. But over time this got imprinted in my brain, so if I one night forgot to do my evening prayers, I felt bad. I did this until well into my teens, but then I gradually stopped. I felt bad, because “what would Jesus think?” At some point, though, I just decided to stop. I felt awful, and feared the repercussions. But as time went on and no repercussions from Jesus or God appeared, I relaxed. In retrospect, this might actually have been a result of an internal rejection of the central tenets of christianity, well before I self-defined as an agnostic or atheist. In fact, I now think I have always been an atheist, but that in my younger years I was not allowed or given the chance to be one.

2 Likes
4

Will I feel well if I do apostasy to get out of religion and allow the existence of some hidden God having nothing to do with religio

5

First you are not Agnostic: Agnostic has nothing to do with belief. Agnostic is about what you know. Knowledge being a subset of belief woule be held to a degree that were you to give up your knowledge it would be life altering. (Belief regarded as completely true no matter what, would fit the category of knowledge.)

The quesion is - do you believe in a god. To what degree? To the assertion; “God exists.” You can only agree or disagree. There is no middle ground. “I don’t know, is exactly the same as saying, 'I disagree.” That is the null hypoothesis. A is not connected to B until there is evidence connecting the two. God is not connected to reality until there is evidence for the claim. Whether or not you know anything at all about God is not important. What do you believe?

There is nothing to withdrawl from. Not that I have ever seen.

You need to start using the word ‘Agnostic’ correctly. This is largely why you are confused.

Agnostic is about “What you Know.”
Agnostic Christians believe in shit like Pascal’s wager. (I don’t know if there is a god or not but I am going to believe anyway so I can get into heaven.)

Agnostic Atheists assert (There seems to be no knowledge of this god thing so why should I believe in it. If you have any knowledge, evidence, I will be happy to change my mind.)

WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE? God exists! I believe it. I do not believe it. Which is your position?

Someone else give him the gum ball analogy. I have to get to class.

3 Likes
6

Okay, No one around and I am back.

God either exists or it does not exist. This is a delimma. A true dichotomy. But you can not address both prongs at the same time.

So, somone says, “God Exists.” This is a claim and for the clam to stand as ‘true’ or even believable, it must be evidenced. The claim must be supported with some kind of fact.

Take a look at the night sky. Look at all the stars. (Gum Ball analogy but different.) Now, while you are looking at them, I tell you that I know for a fact the number of stars in the sky is even. (Do you believe me?)

You tell me, “I don’t believe you.”
‘So, you think the number is odd?’ I ask.

This is the position you are putting yourself in by your use of the word Agnostic. You are pretending there is a middle ground between the claim, “God Exists.” There is no middle ground. You either believe the claim or you do not. You either believe there are an even number of stars in the sky or you do not. Do you believe the number of stars is EVEN? How in the hell would you know — so the answer is “No.” Why would you say 'Yes?"

Does that mean the number is ODD? Of course not. If you say the number is ‘Odd’ it is a claim and you are in the exact same position. You must demonstrate the number to be odd. If I don’t believe the number is odd, does that mean I believe the number is even? NO! I don’t believe the claim until there is evidence supporting the claim. Which god are you talking about that does not exist and how do you know?

A is not connected to B until there is evidence for the claim. There is no reason to believe in a god until there is evidence for the claim.

An atheist is a person who does not believe in God. That does not mean god does not exist. It means the claim that GOD EXISTS has not been demonstrated.

EVERYONE IS AGNOSTIC! Think about it. What in the hell do you actually think you know about god? How in the world would you know it? Most of your god beliefs are just fluff. They have no basis in reality at all. Fearing the god thing is like fearing the boogie man. There is no knowledge; nothing that can be considered knowledge; not when you get right down to the facts.

So are you an atheist or a theist. If I tell you ‘God Exists’ is your first thought ‘Yeah I know it.’ or do you ask, ‘How do you know it?’ ‘How do you know it?’ puts you in line with the atheists.

3 Likes
7

@Redlight82 deep down inside, ask yourself the question: “do I believe a god exists?”

Do not make it complicated because religion carries a lot of baggage, that can make things confusing. But for now, do not think about how many people are theists, how many churches, the threat of hell, just … is there a god?

Keep it simple.

If inside your head you do not see any evidence or reason of a god, then everything else does not matter. And time is on your side, there is no reason to rush into any conclusions.

Many of us, including myself, grew up, and lived many decades as theists. So the process of shedding what we have learned and practiced can take may decades. One of the biggest factors can be the threat of hell. Many people still hang onto religion even though they understand intellectually that they do not think a god exists. But that threat of hell forces them to ponder and say to themselves "I will just hang onto my religion, because I do not want to go to hell.

Breaking free of the indoctrination and practices of religion can be very difficult because religion has become so refined it has learned how to work on a person’s fears and ego. It is the most powerful advertising ever. Come into our shiny and wonderful store, they are wide open and wonderful people will greet you and smile and make you feel very good. But if you want to walk out that door, it is like a battlefield and dangerous. It seems safer to stay inside that safe and wonderful store.

3 Likes
8

Good points guys. From my point of view, all of the above applies and is relevant. I would only add that for some, it seems that a “reset” in thinking is needed. By that I mean that one has to reset the automatic acceptance of religious assertions or answers for ambiguous questions of reality. Whilst under the influence of religion, people tend to accept the nonsensical explanations, with a complete absence of critical analysis.
What is needed is a “buffer” between claims and acceptance which can provide a chance to say “hey, do I have a good reason to believe this”. After exercising this simple “filter” for a while, it becomes an element for critical thinking. The reset comes in where, rather than just accepting because it is a part of the program, one adopts the correct thought process whereby the default position is to not accept claims until sufficient evidence is available to warrant acceptance.
The other “reset” I see is that rather than the fallback position of assuming that there is a hidden power or plan which is determining the course of life and events, employing the knowledge that, to a major degree, we are responsible for ourselves and the outcome of events. Without digressing into a free will/determinism discussion, we have to acknowledge our individual responsibility for our lives. Accepting this can become a liberating force which can manifest in a number of positive ways. This can be a bit scary and as @David_Killens illustrated, this fear is part of the long term indoctrination… It can take a while to let go of the “security” of god-belief, but once it is complete, real security and confidence can be constructed through positively motivated actions, based in demonstrably applicable understanding.

1 Like
9

@Redlight82 One important thing I want you to know. You are in the company of people who have experienced the same confusion and fear. You are among friends who care and support whatever decision you make.

4 Likes
10

It’s really down to what you believe. I had no problem walking away from my mother’s church. I concluded long ago and was quite certain that deities were imaginary, man made, and make believe. So it wasn’t issue for me. I had already made my decision long ago.

The real question is “Do you believe in a “god” or not?”

That doesn’t really mean much to me as you haven’t clarified whether you’re either Theist or Atheist.

You’re either an Atheist or you are not. I have no feelings about being an “Atheist”. I feel no different than I am as a person.

6894c28208bdc169b2cb091dd81731d7
6894c28208bdc169b2cb091dd81731d7444×622 44.3 KB

11

Please explain what you mean by “do apostasy”. Are you asking if you will feel better by getting away from your religion? If so, I’m afraid I cannot answer that question without more information. Such as…

What is your current religion? How does it make you feel? What parts of it make you unhappy? What parts (if any) do you enjoy? Are you staying with it just to keep close friends/family happy? Are you staying with it strictly because of fear of whatever “eternal punishment” it threatens you with if you abandon it? What caused you to start questioning your beliefs?

Think about it and answer these questions honestly to yourself, and it will help you better understand your current position. Share your answers here, and it will help us to better advise you. However, NOBODY here can decide for you how to feel about religion and your god. Ultimately, YOU are the one who has to make that determination. All we can do is offer you information and the resources necessary to help you see “behind the curtain” of how religion truly works.

12

I don’t know what an original god is, but if it is anything like the god of the bible, your original god is a fucking, baby killing, homicidal, murdering, asshole. And I have a room in my house just for you., If you do not believe in anything I say, I will fucking toss you in that fucking room and torture you forever., And I am only doing it for your own fucking good because you defied me and fucking seserve it. And you had better fear me. (God is a fucking Joke.)

Jesus Knock Knock

4 Likes
13

I have a dilemma, I know it doesn’t exist, this fake, but it’s still so strong that if I do, I’ll suffer someday. Another thing is that I want you to understand me well, suppose there is a deistic God who made the world and is at the same time hidden, has nothing to do with religious superstitions in which I do not trust. I am an atheist of every religion and an agnostic of a deistic God. I think you understood. In such a situation, is the act of apostasy a departure from religion or a departure from God in general?

14

Point is… “You don’t have to go there.” Did the Deistic god also make a hell to threaten you with?
What you might want to do is take a look at the invention of hell. It is a Christian invention that did not exist in the Old Testament. You can watch it evolve by studying it. Hell is a modern Christian idea and a whole lot of the imagery comes from Dante.

The idea of the apple in the garden of Eden is a Roman tradition. The serpent was never Satan. “For Adam and Eve the serpent in the Garden of Eden represented the voice of temptation but it needs to be noted that for the original writer, the Yahwist (or J) source, the serpent was not equated with Satan (the Devil). The concept of Satan developed only later (first attested as a personal name c. 300 B.C.E. in 1 Chron 21:1”

Worse: Jesus did not teach about hell. That is a Pauline tradition.
“The vast majority of these people naturally assume this is what Jesus himself taught. But that is not true. Neither Jesus, nor the Hebrew Bible he interpreted, endorsed the view that departed souls go to paradise or everlasting pain.”

“Ancient Jews thought that was true of us all. When we stop breathing, our breath doesn’t go anywhere. It just stops. So too the “soul” doesn’t continue on outside the body, subject to postmortem pleasure or pain. It doesn’t exist any longer.”

“But in most instances Sheol is simply a synonym for “tomb” or “grave.” It’s not a place where someone actually goes .”

You are just yelling at fig trees, and for no reason at all. Someone once told you a scary childhood story and there was no one there to tell you any different, so you believed it.

HERE IS A SECRET: EDIT: (Balme the fuckheads that told you this shit.)
You will never get rid of your impressions of hell. Your fear will always be with you. It will be with you for the rest of your life. It is a part of who you are as a human being. No one ever ‘gets rid of shit.’ This is an outright lie.

What happens is that shit becomes less and less important to you. That cool bike you once had as a kid was the most important thing in your life at one point, and you have not thought of it for 20 or more years. You probably would not have thought about it ever again if I had not brought it up. But stop for a minute and close your eyes. Allow yourself to feel, once again, how fucking important that bike was to you. Feel it. It’s still there. It never left. You simply move on.

If this shit really bothers you, look into it. Look into how you got here and why? Look into the reality. What is real? Why do people believe this stuff? Most important of all - What is the difference between a FACT and an ASSERTION. The bible is a book of assertions. You will find very few FACTS in religious dogma. Keep asking questions. Knowledge is the Bane of religion.

4 Likes
15

You’re going back and forth. It’s like you’re arguing with yourself. “It’s fake but…if I do this…” so you’re questioning yourself.

Lets break it down. What objective admissible evidence is there?

How do you know this god exists? Did you or anyone you know ever actually talk to this deity or receive any concrete objective or physical evidence that this deity exists?

No. You’ve had people dragging you to church and telling that this is all real.

How do those people know a “god” exists?

They 100 Percent do not know. They think they know. They grew up being taught the ways of Christianity. They’re just going along with their brain washed indoctrination. You were fed a story without being given any physical evidence and you were told that it is real and that the Bible was evidence.

Anyone can write a story book and claim that it’s factual without giving any objective evidence to back it up. The Bible is a claim, not evidence. Churches are full of people who bought into those claims without wanting any kind of evidence for it because of religious threats about an afterlife full of torture and misery; “If you don’t believe in god, you’re going to hell to be tortured for all of eternity; you have a choice!”

Do we have evidence for the Christian deity? No. We have none. None what so ever. Just inadmissible hearsay.

Do we have evidence for any mythological deity? No. Again, we have no empirical or objective evidence. Just inadmissible hearsay.

Do we have evidence for the Biblical Jesus? No evidence. None. All we have are Christians spreading more inadmissible hearsay and arguing that a Jesus is real without providing objective evidence or going out and meeting the Burden of Proof for any of these claims.

Now what about Heaven or Hell? Do we have admissible objective and empirical evidence for those 2 places? No apparently not. There’s no evidence of a fiery dungeon or a golden city of Oz.

I’d have to say that you’re afraid of the monster underneath your bed. When you conclude that the monster is all smoke and mirrors, you’re not fooled by it anymore. It wasn’t really ever there.

A lot of religious “evidence” is mainly Fallacy to Imaginary Evidence. Theists have no evidence for their superstitious claims. They mainly rely on Designer Fallacious Arguments and hamfist the religion into DNA and use The God of The Gaps. Their arguments are not based on facts. They argue from a stand point of their “beliefs” or a postulate. They think their beliefs are evidence enough and that’s understandable because a lot of Theists believe in magic and old men in the sky planning our doom.

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

quote-what-can-be-asserted-without-evidence-can-be-dismissed-without-evidence-christopher-hitchens-13-33-53
quote-what-can-be-asserted-without-evidence-can-be-dismissed-without-evidence-christopher-hitchens-13-33-53850×400 55.4 KB

1 Like
16

What if there is a gigantic, invisible, non-corporeal dragon in orbit around the Earth? What if a meteor burns through the atmosphere and hits your car on your way to work? What if the ghosts of The Beatles reunite and play a concert on a deserted island without telling anybody? What if…? What if…? What if…? You can drive yourself crazy doing that all day long about almost ANY subject. Bottom line, though, is what the hell could you possibly do about it? So what if there IS such a “god” that created everything as you described? How does that affect you in any way, shape, or form? In other words, why fucking drive yourself crazy about something over which you have ZERO control? When you step out your front door every day, are you wringing your hands and suffering from anxiety attacks because you are worried about getting struck by lightning? I certainly hope not. (And at least we KNOW lightning is REAL.) So, for the sake of argument, let’s pretend your imaginary “universe-creating god” is real. It stands to reason if that entity can create an entire universe, then it is probably just a wee bit powerful. With that in mind, do you honestly believe there is ANYTHING at all you could do to stop such a being if it somehow took an interest in wanting you dead? Let that sink in a moment.

Personally, I do not know one way or another if such a being exists. More importantly, unless such a being somehow makes its presence known, I really don’t give a shit. I currently have more important things to occupy my mind that involves REALITY.

1 Like
17

Absolutely, who hasn’t done this exact study when your sick and you start searching webmd trying to figure out which disease you have and how it’s going to kill you vs the other disease you most likely also don’t have. Instead of just seeing a doctor, and finding out it’s just indigestion. Not the Holy Spirit trying to rip my intestines out my b hole. Here I thought it was my sins, turns out eating the one chip challenge…twice is just really painful. Fun times.

As to answer this portion, where are you from? I would suggest speaking with a professional. There are plenty of non-religious therapists out there you can speak to. They can help you with coping with your anxiety. A lot of services that are covered by insurance also. Mental health is health, sometimes talking to someone isn’t a bad idea. Again just make sure your talking to a non-religiously affiliated therapist, which they should ask you before hand about this preference. There are more of them than ever nowadays.

18

A lack of evidence __ IS__ evidence of absence, when we would clearly expect evidence to be there. Each and every time we look for evidence of the God claim, we find NOTHING. The best thing we have ever found is one big ‘I DON’T KNOW AND NEITHER DO YOU!’ The Christians then insert their god. But this is a liel. THEY have the burden of proof. The argument, ‘You can’t prove it’s not true!’ Is NOT an argument.

I tell you there is a dead body in the trunk of my car, you would expect to see some kind of evidence. We go to the car and we look inside, we find nothing. No blood, no smell, no hair, no body residue of any kind, no frigging DNA. We find NOTHING. And what we have is a story.

But the body was there, I saw it. It was a ghosly phenomena. It was a spirit. It’s invisible and non-corporal. It was there but the unicorns ate it. Are you calling me a liar? If you believed you would be able to see it too. All bullshit ‘Ad Hoc’ fallacious excuses.

We do have 2000 years of evidence Agaisnst Christianity. 2000 years of asking for evidence and getting stories. All the bad evidence in the world, stuffed and crammed together in a book, does not add up to good evidence., It adds up to a PILE OF USELESS SHIT!~

2 Likes
19

@Redlight82 Maybe my life story may be of help. I grew up in a theist family, the United Church of Canada. I left that organization and stopped attending any services because I thought it was too much of a social club and not devout enough. But I still believed in some kind of a god, a divine creator. After many decades of searching I came to the conclusion that the god(s) as depicted by religions did not exist because of contradictions and lack of evidence.

But I have not rejected the possibility that there may be some kind of god. But it is obviously not revealing itself. If it ever does, I am willing to admit it’s existence. But it will be on my terms and I do not have to bend my knee or worship this god.

I have tried to live a good life, I place the onus on believing in any god in this god’s hands. If I go to hell it is not because I did not try to do the right thing, I will go because this god is an asshole and doomed me from the instant of my birth.

20

Yeah, I am tired of this nonsense…I am worried about real potential threats such as farting so hard that I suffer from complete and fatal prolapse…