How many genders are there?

What is a female brain?

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That seems to be an accusation. No one is obliged to reply to any post. I do not if I have nothing to say.

Apart from that one niggle, pretty good post.

Indeed not, and to be clear people may post or not, as they are minded to. However if someone makes a claim without any evidence, is called on it, doesn’t respond then repeats the claim, especially over and over, then for me, there is a clear inference to be drawn.

eyefangew sir. :sunglasses:

Not into, in this example they already are not a man, their body however is a male body, they can change that body to more closely match who they are. At least that is my understanding of gender dysphoria.

The actor Elliot Page is a good example, as he has physically changed after being born into a female body, to match who he is…

Gender is socially constructed, so it varies based on the culture you’re in. In America, an accurate description could be that there are two prominent genders with a minority outside of those two. But given the wide spectrum of cultures in this world, many people prefer to view gender as a spectrum as well. From this point of view, asking how many genders there are would be as logical as asking how many colors there are.

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M’kay. We most certainly are allowed our own standards.

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I disagree. There is an agreed upon reality in the world. That is how the human race survives. They are making a ploy to change that perceived realty. Now, if a man on the street can pull it off, and make me think he is a female, and that is what tickles his fancy, well good on him. Trust me, all the surgery in the world is not going to fool anyone familiar with female anatomy in the bedroom. At this point, which is way to far into the situation without a disclosure, one of the parties has a right to be quite upset.

A dog is a dog. You don’t teach it to meow, fill it full of hormone injections and then call it a cat. (Bad analogy, I should know better.

Fact is, one person if pulling a con on another.

Now, with that said. I have frequented Thailand and the Philippines. Transsexuals’, Transvestites, Transgenders, and anything else you can think of, are common place. Sitting someplace, talking to a pretty girl, having a drink, we seem to be hitting it off… I have learned to ask. My radar is pretty good after a 30 minute conversation. And that does not mean the conversation stops or that I don’t buy the young lady another drink, or if I am eating offer to get her something. It just means that I can now set an appropriate relationship boundary. She, is not a she, and has disclosed that to me. We need no longer pretend in the little game of male -female. That game is over and we can move forward to being friends … or not.

All I am advocating for is transparency. People can live their lives as they like; however, believing you are female when you are not and then acting as if, is dishonest, illusory, and psychologically unhealthy. Your “real” self is not who you think you are. The real self is what the facts bare out.

There are specific biological differences: Females had greater volume in the prefrontal cortex, orbitofrontal cortex, superior temporal cortex, lateral parietal cortex, and insula . Males, on average, had greater volume in the ventral temporal and occipital regions. Each of these regions is responsible for processing different types of information.

"This was in response to — “being born with the brain of a male in a female body or female in a male body.” I don’t think research supports the idea.

Although this may be true, I’m not aware of a single, universally agreed definition of what is real. Nor am I aware of a single, universally agreed definition of what is or is not ‘normal’.

I welcome enlightenment based on empirical evidence for either or both of these two concepts.

You seem to be advocating universal honest and rational thought. Lots of luck with that.

That’s my point. Instead of pretending we have all these gender lines, we just need to get rid of them. Calling yourself Female, does not make it so. The empirical evidence is what is between your legs.

But I have been to cultures where all of this is not treated with such weirdness. People are people. It does happen in other countries. At least it happens to a better degree in other countries than it does in the USA.

The idea of sexuality usually doesn’t come up in first conversations (it may) and I can understand the feeling of not personally accepting what someone else may be (dating).

It’s a learning curve.

Everyone has baggage :luggage: and on first dates I don’t necessarily just plop mine on the table. My smoking can be a deal breaker for some, and they may not know until I light up after supper. Usually I’d like to get to know the other person a bit at a time…suss them out (and in turn, them me).

HOWEVER deal breakers can pop up right away. On a first date a deal breaker for myself may be “he gets piss drunk” :woozy_face:. My experiences places that person off my list. It could have been a one off or he could be the “best person” but it will have to be for someone else - not me.

Some men and woman may approach transgendered or transvestites or bi-sexuality as a deal breaker (want to know right away) - others do not.

Deal Breakers:

  1. Getting drunk. I get having a dring, even if I am not having a drink myslef, which may often be the case. I drink coffee, coke, water, and rarely something alcoholic. Drunks, male and female, are unattractive. They have significant life and emotional problems that I want no part of. I wrote a date off for three drinks (beers) over lunch and then hopping in her car. Not someone I want to see again.

  2. You caught me … Smoking. Okay… A cigarette now and again, I can live with. Go out onto the patio and have a smoke. Have you any idea what you smell like, taste like, to a non-smoker? I have had girlfriends who smoked… (Never do anything right after a cigarette.) I wrote a date off once for smoking three cigaretts over lunch.

  3. Public displays of Anger. Probably never seen until a bit into a relationship. Causing a scene in public is certainly a reason no not be in a relationship. If you can not sit down and discuss it, figure it out together, you don’t belong together.

  4. Slapping, hitting, destruction of property. “Bye!”

  5. Weird body odors. I may mention it, I may not. It could be cultural and not actually a concern if it can be figured out. It is certainly a relationship killer.

  6. Lies, (Really easy to spot.)

  7. Cell phone addiction. If you don’t know how to put the toy away and act like an adult… you will be treated like the child you are.

  8. Stupidity. I am not the brightest bulb in the pack but please do not engage me with superstitious nonsense.

  9. Probably a lot of other shit as well. There is a reason I have stayed single.

  10. Just to round out the list to a nice 10, Bitching. (I am a believer in the "Honey Do List.) Put my weekly chores on the refrigerator and I will get them done. Don’t Bitch. You want me to do something like turn my socks right side out before putting them in the laundry. Find a way to say it nicely, Don’t wait until you are angry and then attack with it. It’s not hard to do. In fact, we can just let the socks pile up and I will wash my onw socks. Not a problem. Relax! Bitching is an outward manifestation of some sort of internal issue. (“If he really cared about me he would flip his socks before putting them in the hamper. He is disrespecting me.”) Something along those lines.

Okay, that rounds out my list of 10. “Smoking” was on it… but many things on it may seem unreasonalbe. I am not claiming to be reasonable. You are completely correct about smoking. I would never approach a woman I watched light up cigarette after cigarette. I woudld not approach one who was activly smoking. I avoid women who drink beer out of bottles. I don’t drink beer from a bottle when a glass is available. … Fuck… I am a prude piece of shit… no wonder I am still single.

I added no. 5 to my list after my first divorce. Had it been there I wouldn’t have married him. Mind you, I was getting “unmarriageable” in JW-land. I was 20 and desperate (deal breaker no. 11).

I’m still single and very happy :smiley:

There is a whole lot to be said for being single. I have never lived through the commitments the “married” attempt to live through. But then, most of the married, don’t make it through them either and I am convinced most of them are not happy and almost all of them are cheating on one another or just not having sex at all. Marriage as an institution is a failure.

Ironic, eh??? We’d pass each other by… mind you I’m a hot, little thing - so you might think :thinking: maybe just one night won’t hurt :sunglasses:

Reading through this thread, it’s pretty obvious that it’s time to dispense a lesson in developmental molecular biology.

Contrary to what the uninformed might think, even sex isn’t a simple issue of X and Y chromosomes, let alone gender, as I shall now reveal.

What is determined by X and Y chromosomes, is whether or not one develops testes or ovaries. The SRY gene on the Y chromosome is the “launcher” for the testis development process, though a caveat has to be issued here, with respect that the action of this gene exhibits different characteristics across different mammal species. What happens in humans doesn’t necessarily happen the same way in, say, rodents or artiodactyl mammals, and marsupials throw their own interesting variations into the mixture. SRY codes for a protein known as testis determining factor, or TDF.

TDF produced via transcription of SRY, directs gonad-destined foetal cells to traverse the testis development path, and launches a somewhat intricate piece of molecular bureaucracy, failure of any part of which can lead to stalled testis development, or even outright sex reversal (the DAX1 gene has been demonstrated to be implicated in this, along with the SF1 gene). If the standard pathway is launched, without the interference of mutations, TDF arising from SRY activates the expression of SOX9, which in turn launches a cascade involving several zinc finger genes, part of the calmodulin pathway, FGF9 and a range of other genes. This results in the primary gonad cells following the testis development route, followed shortly after by those cells secreting testosterone and anit-MĂźllerian hormone.

One of the interesting “accidents” that can occur, is the transfer of SRY to the X chromosome during meiosis. If this happens, the SRY gene is silenced, and the primary gonad destined cells follow the ovary development pathway instead. The result of this is an ostensibly female individual, but with a male XY karyotype. An individual inheriting this condition, will exhibit normal development of the uterus and fallopian tubes, but the ovaries themselves wil lbe non-functional - it takes more than the mere silencing of SRY to produce working ovaries. That’s an exercise in biochemical bureaucracy all on its own, which involves several members of the requisite gene families undergoing differential expression in the absence of TDF and SOX9.

Now comes the fun part. SRY determines if you have testes or ovaries at birth. But an entirely different pathway determines if you have a penis or a vagina. This is determined by the androgen receptor, which, rather hilariously, is coded for by a gene resident on the X chromosome. Again, there are two standard pathways. When the newly formed testis cells start secreting testosterone, they also secrete androgen, and this launches the male development pathway for the requisite foetal cells, resulting in the development of a penis and a scrotum. On the other hand, the standard female development pathway arises from the absence of androgen, and the androgen receptors remaining unbound to androgen, thus directing the requisite cells to follow the female development pathway, leading to the labia, clitoris, vagina and cervix.

Now of course, the astute reader will be anticipating that mutations in these genes will throw various spanners into the works, so so speak. At which point, it’s apposite to consider what happens in individuals whose androgen receptors fail to bind at all to androgen, courtesy of various mutations. This leads to the female development pathway being launched for the secondary sex organs, resulting in an individual with a normal-seeming set of labia and a superficially normal, functional vagina.

But, when puberty hits, that’s when the first signs appear that the standard pathways weren’t followed “in sync” by the gonads and the secondary sex organs. Because individuals following this development pathway, don’t have a uterus connected to the cervix, and have no ovaries or fallopian tubes. Instead, they have a pair of testes that are trying to descend into a nonexistent scrotum. The failure of menarche, and hernia type pains experienced by the individual in question as the testes try to descend, point to the failure of the androgen receptor during foetal development, a condition known as complete androgen insensitivity syndrome.

Because the testes cannot descend, and are kept at normal internal body temperature, the male hormones they produce are aromatised to the female equivalents, and these individuals, at puberty, develop normal female pattern pubic hair and normal female breasts. But upon karyotype testing, are found to have an XY karyotype, and a CT scan reveals the testes nestling either side of the vagina.

Individuals inheriting this “out of sync” operation of SRY and the androgen receptor, universally identify as female, and indeed, can function in bed and enjoy sex as standard female individuals. But the absence of a uterus and ovaries means of course, that they will never conceive.

So, even before we consider such phenomena as intersexes (incomplete or incorrect androgen receptor binding is a contributory factor here, as is partial sex reversal arising from DAX1/SF1 mutations), the interplay between biology and psychology isn’t as simple as the naive or plain bigoted think. We also have to factor in that both male and female sex hormones exert an influence upon brain development, and disruption in utero of the standard development pathways in this area will also exhibit a profound effect.

Tragically, the usual carelessness endemic to avaricious corporations resulted in several such entities dumping chemical pollutants into watercourses, some of these pollutants returning to haunt us in drinking water, several of which are now known to exert an oestrogenic effect. 40 years’ worth of oestrogenic pollutants in some parts of the developed world have almost certainly contributed to the burgeoning trans population, so the idea that their self-perception is a “choice” is flushed down the toilet by this alone. Mutations in brain development genes influenced by testosterone or oestrogen exposure also throw their own spanners in the works, so to speak.

If this is beginning to sound somewhat complicated, then I’ve probably covered about 1% of the possibilities that are open, given our current knowledge of both the human genome and human brain chemistry. As that knowledge base expands, what I’ve covered above will constitute an even smaller fraction of the possibilities. I don’t claim to be an expert here, and I’m merely recounting the limited learning I’ve pursued on this topic with, I hope, an appropriate amount of diligence. If you want a full exposition, track down a research endocrinologist, who will probably tell you that you’re looking at 25 years or more of hard, continuous study for a proper understanding.

The point of all this, of course, is to demonstrate that for many trans people, their self-perception may well have been forced upon them by biochemical circumstances beyond their control. As a corollary, for them, that perception is reality, whether the rest of us like it or not. For an individual whose brain was wired to be female by oestrogenic pollutants and, say, DAX1 mutations, no amount of bullying, including the flagrant human rights abomination that is “conversion therapy”, is going to change this.

The short version of the above: trans people as just as “real” as the rest of us, and are here to stay, so suck on it.

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Thanks :butterfly:… god I’ve missed your posts. Now I have my brain “fix”.

LOL – It’s the problem… I am single… I have traveld quite a bit in Asia and I have had a lifetime of “hot little things.” Did I mention that I bartended to get through university? (“Hot little thing,” is not a selling point though, I admit, a weakness for thin. I would much rather be with someone whose company I enjoy. How about this… Do you have a good laugh? A good female laugh is incredibly attractive and most men don’t even know this. They just thik they are attracted to the girl and don’t know why. ) Yes, ‘one night doesn’t hurt’ ‘we’ happen to be in the mood. And occasionally I am. And then I roll over in the morning an think to myself… now what?

That my friend is one irony meter that you owe me… :sunglasses:

I thought reality was agreed upon, and not a matter of perception? :sunglasses:

Well again i may be misunderstanding gender dysphoria here, but my understanding is that people with gender dysphoria are trying to align their bodies with who they are, not who others think they are.

I have not claimed otherwise, nor have I suggested people with gender dysphoria want to do this, so this strikes me as something of a strawman.

Are we still talking hypotheticals? :astonished: :face_with_raised_eyebrow: :innocent:

Well at least you acknowledge it was a very bad analogy. Try this, how I personally feel about what someone else does with their own body is my problem, not theirs. I don’t have to like it, or even understand it.

Well personally if anyone finds me attractive nowadays I am flattered, and if I have to quietly apologise, and excuse myself, no harm no foul.

Im reminded of a joke by Frankie Boyle here:

“They say you regret the things you didn’t try.”

…but whoever said this probably hadn’t just broken two corkscrews, trying to get an unlubricated parsnip out of his arse."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Well she is not a she to you, but to her she is, and that is her choice. Personally I don’t waste too much time worrying that I will end up being “pulled” by a woman who happened to be born into a man’s body.

In the unlikely event this ever happens to me, I won’t be offended.

Why? If someone is suffering from gender dysphoria that kind of disclosure would be precisely what they would find painful and humiliating I’d imagine. Though at some point I’d imagine they would quietly let you know before things progressed.

And the facts as I understand them, are that people suffering gender dysphoria are a different gender to the biological body they were born into.

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Self perception related to gender identity is certainly forced upon people. We live in a culture of gender specific binary pronouns. What choices do we offer?

Calling it biochemical leads us to the nurture nature debate which has not been resolved to this point.

No one is arguing this. The issue becomes what one opts to call themselves… ‘gender.’ Biology is certainly as diverse as you have pointed out. “I disagree that a person’s brain is wired to be 'female.” In out culture “female” is one of the only options we have for them. Nothing needs to change it. We can not demonstrate a brain wired to be “female.” It’s as if the category of “Female” is actually a thing. It’s not. It, like all the other categories being spouted, are social constructs. Places to put people so we can identify them which completely ignore the fluidity of biological sex that you so eloquently described. Sex is fluid but these people are trapped by biology in a ‘female’ brain? I just don’t see it.

Get rid of the gender categories! Get honest with sex and gender identity.