I must agree. Johnny’s antics make it near impossible to hold or maintain a rational argument. I follow the method he insisted on, and one step out of the gate, off he goes on a rant about fear and other distracting noise.
Oh well, many unknown faces (waves) read this forum and they get to decide without being involved in such antics. But they get to form opinions on who is attempting to maintain an adult and rational argument and who is running in fear.
Uh…don’t forget Tin Man’s traveling companion.
Edit: If I only had a…
No it is not fear. IT IS A LACK OF EVIDENCE. We KNOW the universe is approximately 13.5 billion years old. We know there was a singularity that led to the Great Expansion (Big Bang for you) . We don’t know about “before” because NOBODY KNOWS what (if anything) was “before” or even if there WAS a before.
Any one who claims different is just making things up.
There a re many stories about the beginning of the world, all human in origin and ALL claiming some magical explanation. The collection of tales that you personally venerate ( the bible) is no more accurate than the Pitjinjarras’ or Yamatji, or Lakota, Cherokee, Tiwi or Hindu version of events, and in many ways less entertaining.
Your claims are dismissed. and to set your mind at rest "
The Book of Genesis. [1:1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth , [1:2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [1:3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light."
No evidence of creation exists. No evidence of your God of choice (or any other has been demonstrated) The Earth was not covered in water when it formed. There was light (from the Sun and many other Suns)) long before the Earth was formed.
Now, please run along and count your fingers and toes and see if you get the same answer twice.
Maybe you should just cut the bullshit. Your religion is your security and we all know the gap between happiness and truth can be surprisingly vast. I find it funny that you refer to us as cowards. But look who’s talking. If believing in a man made sky daddy makes you feel safe at night. By all means go ahead. Run away and worship your impudent imaginary god. I don’t buy your ranting and raving along with your imaginary claims of evidence. Obviously you know nothing about your bible. We all know you have NOTHING further to offer in this debate. You even refuse to summon your deity or demonstrate miracles as the gospel Jesus promised to evidence your claims. Hell, if you could do those things, you’d be richer than Joel Osteen and have the Nobel Prize. You’re not fooling anyone.
Creation? What creation? WTF are you talking about? Who told you something was created, and why did you believe it?
Who keeps believing in God. Let’s kill the bum. Or you could learn how the quote function on the site works. Highlight the text you want to quote. A quote box will appear. You click on the quote box and (Just Like GOD’S magic! The text will magically appear in your message.
If by ‘begin’ you mean started to expand. Well, that’s the best info we have at the moment. I don’t know of another theory that rivals it for accuracy.
Yes, I am revealing how far behind I am. I am a fucking chimpanzee. Please O-Enlightened one, share with me how you know the universe was created. And learn to use your ‘quote function.’ Your current post is unreadable.
Didn’t I discuss this already? Can you read?
Um… did you have a special verse you wanted to share. Obviously the bible is not correct, bats are not birds. Serpents don’t talk. There was never a point when one man could spit in a blind man’s eyes and cure his blindness. Zombies are not real things, and they do not rise from the graves and walk about city streets. I am pretty sure the bible is wrong about a lot of stuff.
Well, not exactly. What do you mean by, “The “Big Bang” created” The universe expanded. Do you understand what is meant by "Big Bang?’ (The universe began to expand.)
He doesn’t. That’s one of the many problems here.
I think we’re dealing with someone who is apparently not basically informed about the accepted scientific model on the subject, or is possibly “informed” but in a quite stunted way.
(And if he does have accurate knowledge of it, that shit is under very tight wraps.)
This will continually fuel his “argument,” his incredulous calls to recognize the reality of his untestable explanation, and our dismay.
I always thought the Big Bang was fascinating. I started learning about it in the 3rd grade. It’s better than the answers Christian Mythology peddles.
This person is well and truly a fucking moron. What a complete waste of time.
Heck Cog, I have not even gotten past “In the beginning God” of Genesis 1:1, even though I was dutifully following his suggestion to start at the beginning.
If he continues to bleat and distract the sole conclusion I must make is that Johnny is unable to deal with the slightest examination of his holy book.
And there’s over 1,200 pages to go. lol
You keep using the same begging the question fallacy, you don’t rationally get to assume anything was created, this you would need to support with sufficient objective evidence. I assume nothing about the origins of the universe, nor does atheism, since atheism is the lack or absence of belief in a deity or deities, and nothing more. Not believing something is not the same as holding a contrary belief, here you are repeatedly attempting to us an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, so two known common logical fallacies already and we are one paragraph in, Tell us again how no one here is thinking rationally?
We don’t believe any creation happened, it’s your belief, thus it is for you to explain define and evidence it objectively. I have explained multiple times that not having an alternative explanation to your unevidenced assumption the universe was created, does not logically lend any credence to your claim or belief, this is the very definition of an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, each time you post the claim and ignore the fact it is irrational, it tells us something about you, apart from the fact you’re trolling of course, which has been self evident from the start.
Do have anything of value, or even something original to offer, beyond the usual mangled first cause fallacies you’ve parroted here?
The bible is filled with errant nonsense, again the Noah flood myth is falsified by the geological evidence for example, which demonstrates irrefutably that no such global flood ever occurred. No one I believe has claimed every word in the bible if incorrect, but it goes without saying that none of the appeals to mystery magic and the supernatural are supported by any objective evidence at all, thus I disbelieve them. I don;t need to disprove them, that is not how logic works,
Sigh, why do you assume it was created, nothing is science’s understanding of the big bang theory evidences any creation, and again no one here is claiming to know if the big bang was caused, needed a cause, or what may or may not have caused it, so what?
If that’s a cryptic and thoroughly unexpected piece of self examination from you, then I can only concur.
Trolltasic, I’m calling this one.
That’s true of me, I don’t believe the bible is correct, and for your sake (for all of our sakes) I really hope I’m right. It’s an actual commandment to keep the sabbath holy. If not going to church are you spending the day worshiping on your own? If not that, I certainly hope you’re not doing any work. The bible advocates killing someone for so much as “picking up sticks” on the sabbath. All in all it’s a pretty shitty book full of atrocities.
Oh. Genisis. Why did you choose that book as the beginning of the your story? There are 66 books in the biblical anthology. Genisis was written during the Post Exile period from Persia. Amos, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua,Judges,Samuel, Kings, Obadiah, Deuteronomy expanded with addition of chapters 1–4 and 29–30, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Second Isaiah, Expansion and reshaping of Hosea, Amos, Micah, and Zephaniah, and the Psalms of David (ending with 89), were all written and being used before anyone ever thought of writing Genesis. You didn’t really think is was the first book of the Bible did you? LOL… The Jews worshiped the Persian Pantheon before adopting Yahweh (a previous member of the pantheon), as their very own. That’s why your god is so worried about you worshiping other gods. He was such a looser that he had to make a law; “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” LOL You didn’t know this shit? Really? Genisis was written after your god divorced his wife and the Jews destroyed all the Ashrams and they stopped worshiping Asherah.
So… you think Genisis is the First book? 1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”* Genesis 1 describes creation as a six-day event followed by rest. But you wanted a rebuttal, right? All you need do is read a bit further. Genesis 2, however, does not have a multi-day sequence.Genesis 2 begins with the Hebrew phrase be-yom . This signals that the second creation account happened either in one day or a continuous series of events not marked by the passing of days.
Genesis 1 describes the ordering of primordial chaos in the following sequence
First, God creates the habitable space: light, separation of waters, dry land (days 1-3). Second, he fills the space: plants, heavenly lights, sea and sky creatures, land animals, and humans (male and female) together at the end (days 4-6).
Genesis 2 follows a different order.
God creates ha-`adam (the man, or Adam) out of dust and before there is any plant life (Genesis 1 says plant life preceded humanity). Next he creates a garden and puts the man there to work it. After placing the man in the garden, God creates animals for him as helpers.
Then, finding no suitable helper for man among the animals, God forms the woman out of the man’s side (rather than forming humans together on the sixth day as in Genesis 1).
The gods in the two accounts are completely different. The god in Genisis 2 walks around Eden lost and can’t find anyone who he left there just a few days ago.
I’m sorry, what was the question again? Oh year, you have not gotten past “In the beginning…” Heck, all you have to do is read your own bible. Why haven’t you done that?
More on how creation happened on its own since you believe it did somehow and no supernatural God was needed…
To make a rational examination and determination whether there is a god, I require some form of evidence outside of the bible."
That’s not evidence either how the universe created itself. I already answered you but you’d rather pretend as if I’m dodging you.
I clearly gave you…–Great. The topic when I joined this thread WAS the bible. I mentioned how you all were putting it down and wondered how you took it in a logical sequential manner to understand and thus how any of you made it past the first verse. The replies were NONE of you would attempt to. So let’s see if you were brave enough to show how you thought this through to explain how the universe started on its own.
You even wrote…“At best, the bible is a series of tales, each copies of copies of translations of copies with no original documents.”
So you know the topic is the bible and you called it “a series of tales”
but you can’t give how it’s that even from the first verse. So your desperate attempt of YOU dodging to back up what was given is rather evident.
“I am not afraid, not ducking and attempting to distract. I am the one sticking to the method you laid out.You failed to propose any counter to my question.”
You’re doing nothing of the sort. You are RUNNING from what I gave. The subject, even as you acknowledged, is the bible. It’s your “series of tales” that you can’t get past the first verse on.
“It’s also repetition of a discredited argument. And switching the burden of proof. And presenting a false dichotomy. I may be missing one.”
Nothing false about it. You can’t answer a simple question. You RUN from it. You all act as if you’re so sure about what the bible is, and you have no integrity to admit you can’t get past the first verse.
“Yes, I would LOVE to know how “behind” I am…give it your best shot.”
“I must agree. Johnny’s antics make it near impossible to hold or maintain a rational argument.”
What is the rational you give? I made it clear and you make it clear you run from reality when you’re asked to produce.
“Uh…don’t forget Tin Man’s traveling companion.”
“We don’t know about “before” because NOBODY KNOWS what (if anything) was “before” or even if there WAS a before.”
Sure we know there had to be nothing. You could have explained how there was always something, but…you can’t. You could have said the bible looks correct in the first verse, but your pride won’t let you do that. You know the bible is not correct and you know that by not knowing. That’s some funny stuff.
“Any one who claims different is just making things up.”
No, I go by what science shows, not by science fiction like you all do.
I actually have to break down and teaching you all BASIC science.
Space, matter, and time all go hand in hand. We have no science that is observable, repeatable, and falsifiable that shows that any of those can be taken out and still have one or two remaining. Same with the laws of nature, if people want to describe things as natural events and then throw in the laws of nature as if they did not pertain at that time, then that is not science but science fiction. Once science fiction comes into play, then anything can be made up.
Evidence points to nothing does nothing. Real science says if there was something there already it must fit with the evidence of what we know. It must be observable, repeatable, and falsifiable. We know the 1LT says there’s a conservation of energy. It can change forms and neither can be created or destroyed. Creation cannot happen by natural means. The 2LT has various aspects, one being the universe is winding down, entropy. Usable energy is becoming less usable, so at one point usable energy was at its max. This (the 1LT and 2LT) all points to a supernatural creation, by a supernatural creator at a certain point in which matter, space and time were created. When I read how it can happen otherwise, ALL the doubters resort to science-fiction. Once a supernatural creation is accepted, then the next step is finding proof of what supernatural power did it. We know these laws and have NO doubts about them.
“No evidence of creation exists.”
How this group is not embarrassed by their silly comments is beyond me.
“Obviously you know nothing about your bible.” That’s how creation happened to you.
“Creation? What creation? WTF are you talking about? Who told you something was created, and why did you believe it?” This should be on a comedy channel the laughs are just too much.
“If by ‘begin’ you mean started to expand. Well, that’s the best info we have at the moment. I don’t know of another theory that rivals it for accuracy.” Another funny one. This is really something. You don’t have a clue what creation in this context means.
“I think we’re dealing with someone who is apparently not basically informed about the accepted scientific model on the subject, or is possibly “informed” but in a quite stunted way.” Says the clueless person who can’t get past what was so clear, how did the universe create itself? Read it a 1000 times and see if it sinks in then.
“I always thought the Big Bang was fascinating. I started learning about it in the 3rd grade. It’s better than the answers Christian Mythology peddles.” And that’s how…the big bang created.
“This person is well and truly a fucking moron. What a complete waste of time.” From the person who can’t understand a clear question.
“If he continues to bleat and distract the sole conclusion I must make is that Johnny is unable to deal with the slightest examination of his holy book.” Yep, see David run. See David running from what was asked of him. See how his stupid question does NOT answer a thing how the universe was created on its own. See David the runner from reality and any rational thought.
“You keep using the same begging the question fallacy, you don’t rationally get to assume anything was created,” I have to wonder did this forum start in some insane asylum? If nothing was created, then you could have given evidence this was there all along but…darn…you skipped that part.
“The bible is filled with errant nonsense” Therefore, that somehow answered how we got creation or no creation was needed. Amazing.
“I don’t believe the bible is correct,” And so the first first is not correct by your evidence of…(blank)
“Why did you choose that book as the beginning of the your story?” Can you find someone who can teach you Reading Comprehension 101?
Is anyone in this asylum, I mean forum, able to show how the first verse is wrong? If not, you didn’t take the bible in a sequential manner, that was too below you all. It’s rather CLEAR! Still, it some great comedy you all provide.
Are you suggesting that your god, your creator, works only in this universe? Because I’m sure that if you are so bold as to cite the Laws of Thermodynamics, you must know they pertain only to closed systems. Otherwise, you would risk looking quite silly, and I would posit you’re not silly. Or are you?
Why not? 
Will you be explaining how you arrived at this conclusion?
You sound like a crackhead.
Nope, this is still a lie, as no one here believes anything was created, except you of course. Now can you demonstrate any objective evidence for your claim?
You’ve failed to do this, you’re still peddling the same irrational argument you started with, an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.
Still a straw man fallacy you’ve created, as no one has claimed this. Again you have yet to demonstrate any objective evidence that anything was created.
Indeed, and I asked you to cite any objective evidence in the bible for any deity, or creator, or anything supernatural. To save some time as you seem a bit of a slow learner, unsubstantiated claims are not objective evidence.
That’s a lie, isn’t that verboten in your superstition?
Another lie, this has most definitely been explained I read the post, and objective evidence was cited to support the explanation, isn’t lying considered wrong in your superstitious beliefs? Maybe it’s you who hasn’t read the bible?
Another lie, I have asked to cite ANY part of the bible that represents objective evidence for any deity, your reticence is unsurprising, but your constant lies are rather odd, are you sure you’re a Christian?
Of course there is, but then you don’t know what a false dichotomy fallacy is obviously, It means your assertion was by definition illogical.
You’ve outdone yourself there, with a straw man fallacy a false dichotomy fallacy and an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy in one single sentence. It’s as if you’re going for a record on most logical fallacies posted in one go.
Ouch, this is painful to watch, you’re embarrassing yourself. I’m not even going to disavow your cretinous verbiage, it’s way too much fun to watch this car crash unfold.
Nope, but it did address your claim that was quoted before it. maybe language isn’t your forte, but you’re clearly trolling, or dumber than a bucket of hair of course, to be honest I’m 50/50 on that at the minute.
If I need one I’d be loathe to get a recommendation from you, given the evidence of your posts.
Ok, new rule suggestion.
Post something unintelligent and you get a warning.
Post it more times than one can count on two hands and receive a time out.
(Edited for aiming at a particular target)