I agree, the best we can hope for is to view everything critically and skeptically. Striving for objectivity and keeping an open mind will have to do.
Indeed. I like to think that’s why I’m both a skeptic (one who questions, not just a scoffer) and a cynic (one slow to trust as well as perhaps a disappointed romantic)
I tend to think life has a way of disavowing romanticism and idealism, in all but the most stubborn, or the extremely lucky.
But I try to temper cynicism, at least as it pertains to myself, as it may lead to self pity, and then I tend to strike myself all of a sudden as a pathetic figure, given how fortunate I’ve been.
I like to complain mind, out loud as well, but it’s always meant as irony to get a laugh, though it backfires sometimes when people miss the sarcasm. The ex wife for example.
Maybe I need to carry emoji cards?
Look I’m almost feeling sorry for myself again…
Or am I…
"Mohamedou Ould Slahi, whom the United States held, without charge, for fourteen years. Slahi was one of the few individuals held in Guantanamo Bay detention camp, whom US officials acknowledged had been tortured."
One of the methods of the psychological torture used, was the threat to imprison his mother at Guantanamo, implying she would be raped.
He was never charged with any crime, and after a US court acquitted him, the US government kept him locked up in Guantanamo for another 7 years. He never saw his mother again, as she died in 2013 before he was released.
And yes, he is a Muslim.
This religion loves to brag about its high following and they always use the majority fallacy to talk about why they are right and should not be criticised. Like as if their belief exempts them from being criticised. As soon as they act offended, people get so remorseful and take back their opinion and say ‘oh I’m so sorry I dared to disagree with you’.
They also intentionally forget to mention how so many people have been forcibly converted by this shit. If people disagree with them, then there are always punishments. People just don’t have the balls to fight this shit publicly and say that they are wrong for killing others (I’m talking governments sanctioning them and doing the big stuff). Muslims will always come up with this bullshit excuse like ‘its not the religion, its the people’.
Firstly, bitch, people like you? People who can justify beheading a teaching in France for showing students a picture? Are you mentally unwell?? People who are so blind to their beliefs that they cannot even admit someone is vile for killing another person over a picture.
(personal experience where this dumb woman said I don’t realise how disrespectful it is and I told her she was inhumane. ). Secondly, it is the religion. I sometimes wonder if Muslims ever read their book of lies. Like not what someone else has told them but reading it with their own eyes and seeing how laughable it is. It is only a 300 page book? Like why can’t you read it and see how full of shit it is.
Also, in my country, most muslims are Indian. They always say that when you are criticising the religion, you are being racist which I find so hilarious. I am also Indian and now they have nothing to say:joy: The next thing they will go to is, you’re Islamophobic which excites me so much. Of course, criticising this religion must mean I hate all muslim people I really hate this religion because it leads to the expectation that everything has to be for them. If they are a minority, they should get what they want. If they are a majority, they should get what they want. In my country, the mosque was criticised for the call to prayer being too loud and they had silenced it. But the muslims in my city had the damn audacity to write in articles that they contribute to 8% of the wealth in the country. I was like yes and the other 92% want nothing to do with your wealth if you think you can control us.
Sorry for the rant but this religion pisses me off so quickly, I wanted to talk about how they always use the same arguments and how they are full of fucking shit so always be prepared for their bullshit
Do you mean argumentum ad populum? Whilst this is used sometimes to defend Islam, a more typical fallacy is an argument from assertion fallacy, used to ring fence the Koran from all criticism.
A sure sign in my experience, that the criticism makes a valid argument they can’t refute.
If the Koran, or the bible were the inspired perfect words of an omniscient deity, I find it irrational that any of it needs defending, ever? It should surely be beyond any criticism mere evolved apes can offer. Yet this isn’t the case.
That’s simply not true, even among Muslims. I find their beliefs as vapid as all other unevidenced superstition, and am repulsed by the indiscriminate violence of terrorism, but that claim is simply false sorry. It is of course precisely what Islamic terrorists hope to achieve with their actions, to create a wider conflict between Islam and non Muslims. It behoves us all not to give terrorists the result they want. It’s also worth remembering that as heinous as these acts are the likelihood you’ll die from a terrorist act is minuscule, reserve your hatred for the person and act, and reserve your energy to fight diabetes, malaria, poverty, ignorance and climate change.
Very few governments sanction terrorism, and I’d have thought for fairly obvious reasons, but even those that do usually see how unwise it would be to make such endorsements publicly.
Well whilst that is an attempt to paper over the cracks of their religion’s more pernicious doctrines, it is a fact the only a very tiny minority of Muslims resort to terrorism. Not all Christians are violent racists after all, yet there is plenty of scope in the bible to justify such attitudes. This softening of the attitudes of many religious adherents is a gradual process, abetted by science and education, and enabled by the leisure time post industrialised democracies have gifted so many to examine morality and ethics, once the domain of a very small ruling elite, including established religions.
Again these “people” are a minuscule minority, it’s wrong to demonize a religious demographic of hundreds of millions based on this, as that is nothing more than a negative stereotype.
Hmm, this kind of generic sweeping pluralism does not sit well with me, sorry. Besides many Muslims do speak out against such violence.
Oh I don’t imagine their religion differs drastically from most others in that respect. Thinking entirely for oneself is not an easy or natural state, where one can throw off cultural societal and family influence. That view alone would see someone ostracized in many societies around the globe.
Whilst the claim is often used erroneously to attack all criticisms of Islamic beliefs, it is nevertheless a fact that opportunistic racism is often espoused and disguised in this fashion. If one looks carefully it usually becomes clear when legitimate criticisms of religious beliefs have strayed into generic condemnati8ns in order to demonize large demographics, or ethnic groups.
Not a very disconcerting accusation, I suspect the hope in some quarters is the mere suggestion will gain the kind of stigma attached to antisemitism. I can see the rationale of course, and I find unevidenced or false claims of antisemitism aimed at those who criticise the Jewish religion or the actions and policies of the Israeli government equally spurious attempts to ring fence religious beliefs from criticisms, while simultaneously drawing that protection around political ideologies. This kind of rhetoric has been used in politics for a long time.
Did the local authority reverse the decision? Religions always play the victim card when criticised. I don’t think Islam is unique there to be honest.
Well this the place to air criticisms of religions. Though we must be careful not to stray into demonising all adherents of a religion with negative stereotypes.
You make some good points and I don’t hope to sound like a complete maniac like my religious counterparts. However, it is frustrating when the people of this religion automatically say ‘its not all people’. I know that, but what are the majority doing to condemn or stop them from doing it. IMO, it seems like they accept it easily because its what their god would want, if that makes any sense? The ones that do openly talk about it always have to fear for their lives and it pisses me off that people cannot criticise this religion without fearing some sort of threat afterwards.
Thankfully, that one mosque has been silenced from playing their call to prayer but many people still don’t understand why the mosque can’t do whatever it wants, even though there is only 5, 8% of the population that is following islam.
I am trying to make better arguments and learn more about the different fallacies so I thank you for the replies. It feels difficult to be objective about this and not see red from thinking about it. Being angry means they’ve won.
Any terrorist organization requires the support of some segment of the population. They require money, food, clothing, shelter, a place to stay and train, and that comes from the locals turning a blind eye, even supporting them.
A good part of any counter-terrorism operation is to win the hearts of the locals, so that the support dies.
Well Stalin was an atheist, I’m an atheist, what have I done in the eyes of the world to condemn his actions?
Just because we are not aware that many Muslims would, and probably do, condemn these egregious acts of violence, does not mean they have not.
That seems like an unevidenced assumption to me. I am always weary when claims are made on behalf of hundreds of millions of people.
Reason enough I’d think to be cautious about what you here suggest is deliberate reticence on their part. It’s easy to indulge our emotions, just as it’s easy to mistake reticence as complicity, when you can see it is more complex.
I agree, though I’d not limit this observation to Islam, and this fact would make me cautious about sweeping generalisations that make generic condemnations of Muslims, but then I’m always dubious about generic attacks on large demographics, as it has always struck me as dangerous, and of course bigoted. This is not to suggest you intended bigotry here, but you must be cautious, as must we all.
So not really many then, a small percentage in fact, and remember a person is free to think or believe whatever they wish, even things we may find repulsive, and to express those beliefs in any free society. Though there can be consequences to how we use free speech, we must accept that we will at times hear things we find morally objectionable, if we want to live in a free society, then this is the price of democracy.
You can and should be angry at violence and injustice, and never stop bring angry at the cowardice of terrorist atrocities, but don’t let your anger make you lose sight of the best ways to resist, fight, and prevent such acts.
So did Judaism and christianity. Slavery has been banned for Jews and christians for about 150 years. Contrary to Christian and perhaps some Muslim claims, morality evolves as society evolves. Who knows, one day we may have gained the maturity to ban war.
If you mean Islam today allows slavery, evidence please.
That slavery may be allowed by the Q’uran does not demonstrate that slavery exists in any large scale today as a direct consequence. Things have changed lot since the Q’uran was cobbled together in the seventh and eighth centuries.
I’m aware that slavery still exists in pockets around the world, but it is most definitely not permitted in any civilised society and that includes most Islamic countries. .Nor do most Muslims today individually or as a group are so morally bankrupt as to seek and keep slaves. Or indeed allow them to be kept. (pending empirical evidence to the contrary.)
I’m an atheist so do not believe in gods nor by extension so called revealed texts. I truly don’t care about the personal superstitions of others, as long as they stay out of my face. I live in Australia, one of most secular nations on earth. With the exceptions of actions by some conservative christian politicians, religion does not impact on me directly.
That makes you ignorant and bigoted imo. As far as I can tell, you simply do not have the evidence to condemn one billion people
Translate bigot into Spanish
- A person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
‘don’t let a few small-minded bigots destroy the good image of the city’
More example sentences
First of all, bigot is not a suitable word to describe me, I was born as Muslim and I know what I’m talking about mate. I have studied the Quran for some time after which I decided to leave that cult immediately, so don’t try to low-key accuse me of Islamophobia. Many Muslims have never even opened the Quran or Hadiths, choosing to rather listen to the interpretations of imams or clerics. This is why we have 1.8 billion and not 1 billion of Muslims around the globe as you’ve said, if people had spent some of their time just to analyse what they believe in personally, there would be much less adherents of this religion.
Even though slavery does not exist anymore in the Muslim countries, I think it is largely due to the fact that having a slave based economy is simply not really effective and stable enough when compared to modern models. However, these Islamic, slave-owning societies have usually lived strictly according to the Shariah law, literally everything had to be justified by the Quran in order for that something to be legal. So the fact that Quran was used numerous times throughout history to justify owning other human beings means that it actually does justify slavery.
For example, in the Arabian peninsula where I have lived for some time of my life, slavery had been abandoned in late 19th century / early 20th century. But I have noticed that the migrant workers are treated like slaves rather than as actual human beings. Many are regularly beaten and abused and generally kept in horrible conditions. Everyone who lived in UAE, Qatar, SA, or Kuwait probably know what I mean and what the situation is like there. Naturally, Muslim migrant workers are treated somewhat better than their Hindu or Christian counterparts.
There is a really good 10 minute mini-documentary done by the BBC about online sales of maids in the Middle East which I suggest to you to watch. Here’s the link: https://youtu.be/Qxz-vmbFXd4
Obviously, Christians did practice slavery on a massive scale, but I’m not so sure about Jews, however. Torah and the Bible do not explicitly say that slavery is allowed, but the Quran does. For some strange reason, slaves are referred to as “those whom your right hands possess”, and this phrase is met quite often throughout that evil book. The guy who goes by the name of Apostate Prophet did a good video about this on his YT channel
Regarding the Islamic slave trade, it was much, much more severe in nature than the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. Even though around the same amount of people were shifted out of Africa, but unlike the descendants of these black slaves which exist in significant amounts in the New World, why there are almost no descendants of the black slaves in the Middle East? Why the native populations in Arab countries consist almost entirely of Arabs rather than including black people as well like it does in USA, Brazil, Cuba, etc.? The answer is easy, if slaves in the Christian majority Americas were given the right to marry to each other, have children, and start families, the slaves in the Middle East were denied these basic rights. Actually a lot of the men were castrated. The structure of slavery backed by the Shariah law is therefore much more inhumaine and severe imo.
Oh yah, it’s there. Had to be for part 3 of Jehovah’s/Jesus/Allah’s “revealing”.
Thanks, mate! Now I’m more educated about the Abrahamic Religions (aka the evil triad imo
). It still astounds me how significant the role of slavery was in the human history. I can’t comprehend how people turned each other into tradable goods. I just want to know what on earth went inside the minds of people who owned slaves.
Literally no other animal (except for some species of ants) other than us actually practice it.
I accept that your attitude reflects your personal experience.
However, you condemn one billion people because they are Muslims. THAT is the very definition of bigotry.
Our experiences of Islam are obviously very different:
I lived in a Muslim Country (Malaysia), Spent a lot of time in a Malay (Muslim) village. Their women did not wear burqa or hijab. I had a lot of friends. I was always treated with great kindness an respect.
I read the Quran at University and spent couple of years studying aspects of Islam.
I have an American Muslim cousin, now retired. He taught Arabic at the Aga Khan Foundation in Paris. His doctor’s thesis was published as “The Wisdom Of The Throne” It’s on the philosophy of The Mulla Sadra (look it up). He gave me a copy, it’s pretty good.
Also have a lot of Muslim neighbours in my area with whom I get along well.
So, yeah, our experiences are different. I neither hate nor fear Muslim as individuals nor Islam as a religion.
As for slavery within Judaism. You truly are ignorant aren’t you.
Slavery was common within most ancient societies all over the world. . It was considered quite Moral. It was never an arab monopoly. I’ll go further, as a far as I can tell, there were of course many arab slavers who were Muslim. So far I’ve seen no empirical evidence that any of them were slavers because they were Muslim.
The Torah, on which Islam is based, has quite a bit to say on how to treat slaves. Slavery was simply assumed. EG Hagar the Eypian, was the mother of Ishmael with Abraham, and Ishmael was the father of the arabs. Hagar was Abraham’s slave.
I repeat my earlier assessment, you come across as an ignoramus and a bigot. I’ll add fool to that because you seem wilfully ignorant.
I have nothing more to say to you on this topic.
I never said it was an Arab monopoly. Where did I say that? Literally every society had practiced it in one way or another. What I’m saying is that trade for the main purpose of which was to obtain slaves was 1st done by Islamised Arabs, also it was during the rule of Islam where a clear criteria based mostly on race, ethnicity, skills, etc that determined the value of the person was developed. Pagans from Africa where regarded as the lowest and an adult man could have been sold for a handful of silver coins on the market. Racial slavery arose first in the Islamic world, even the ancient Greeks and Romans have never regarded black people as inferior.
Regarding your experience with it in Malaysia, Islam has a small influence in the lives of people there anyway since it is a distinctly secular country and has considerable minorities of Hindus, Buddhists, and Catholics (also others). In addition to that Islam came to SE Asia fairly recently, around the 15th century so it is not as engrained into the Malay society as it is in the MENA region. I also live in a Muslim country where the type of Islam practiced is quite liberal, but imo the pure Islam is practiced in countries like Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc where a slightest violation of the shariah law would lead to severest punishments and public humiliation.
You are honestly the one who is an ignorant fool here, there aren’t only one billion Muslims, but nearly two billion. Just a quick google search could have gotten you the right answer in almost an instant, but you chose not to and rather come up with facts yourself. I have also written to you in my previous post that there are more than 1 billion followers of Islam. So that also means you have answered to my post without reading it properly. If these are not clear examples of ignorance, then I don’t know what is Quran is not entirely based on Torah btw, it is also based on the Bible, previous pagan beliefs of the Bedouins and includes some elements of Zoroastrianism at some aspects as well. Another mistake you have made due to your ignorance.
That is factually incorrect. One easy example that took me a very short time to learn about was the ancient Greeks. And they had slave traders LONG before Islam.
Now you are moving the goal posts. Is that honest?
I’m no expert on the subject; but I’m guessing that is false.
So of all the pre-Islam societies that practiced slavery on a grand scale, you are certain none of them raided other communities for slaves?
From Wiki … Slavery in China - Wikipedia
The Shang dynasty engaged in frequent raids of surrounding states, obtaining captives who would be killed in ritual sacrifices. Scholars disagree as to whether these victims were also used as a source of slave labor.
The Shang dynasty ruled China from 1600 to 1046 B.C.
@Arandomdeist I get it, your distaste of Islam is evident. But your bias is too, and you are blatantly ignoring historical facts.
Yes, Islamic slavery is immoral. But they were not the first.
In fact, Qatar won the rights to the 2022 World Cup and are fundamentally practicing slavery.
Yes it is . As a claim a bit of a howler…
As far a I’m aware, racial slavery was rarely practiced anywhere until it became a deliberate in the antebellum US states. The reason for that was because they could then justify enslaving people who were racially inferior.
Muslim slavers could ,and did enslave anyone. They were however forbidden to enslave Muslims.
Ancient Kingdoms of the Fertile Crescent,. Indus valley and the Americas all had slavery long before. As far as far I’m aware, Egypt practiced slavery from at least 1500 bce. Although Egyptian culture was never slave based. Their slaves tended to be prisoners of war who were released after a set time.
The history of slavery can be traced back 11,000 years. It reached Greece around 200 bce, being imported from Sumeria. It was first identified in Sumeria from The Code of Hammurabi (reigned in Babylon 1792-1750 bce)
Next I expect a treatise to explain about the great scientific discoveries mentioned in the Quran.