Exactly. I call this “the failed epistemology of religious faith” which is usually further based on a faulty definition of “knowledge” – since epistemology is all about what knowledge is and how one accurately obtains it.
Biblical inerrantists can never see this however because it is the exact opposite of their dogma: trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding”. In their “upside-down”, religious faith claims are trustworthy but substantiated truth claims are not. “Let God be true, and every man a liar”.
Wow! Thanks a bunch, Cali! It’s an honor to be able to contribute to your extensive vault of knowledge. Hope you get to use that little tidbit now and then.
I’m right there with you on that, Cynical. I’ve mentioned before how I have zero desire to visit theist sites and “spread the word of atheism” to the faithful members of such sites. Granted, I admit the IDEA of participating in such discussions on a theist site does sound mildly entertaining, but what would be the purpose? I would end up being not-so-ceremoniously ejected from the site within the first two minutes of joining an on-going chat. Plus, as I have learned over the past few years and based on what I know from very personal experience, those theists who are fully committed to their chosen faith WILL NEVER be swayed to question their precious god nor the bible that has controlled their lives since they were children. I might as well go outside and talk to a tree stump and try to convince it to remove itself from the ground to help clear my yard for easier mowing purposes. Besides all of that, though (and this is just a personal quirk of mine), I would consider it to be rude of me to “invade” their site. I prefer not to be rude to folks who are in their own space minding their own business. Unlike this site where we WELCOME theists to come in and present their beliefs for scrutiny and tell us how wrong we godless heathens are for not believing in their chosen god, those who are on theist sites are there to escape from the real world for a few moments and share their favorite bible verses with their fellow faithful companions who will bring them peace of mind and comfort as they try to cope with the stresses of daily life. Honestly, I would just feel plain wrong if I were to go in there trying to pick a fight. It would be like a fox jumping into a pen of fuzzy yellow baby chicks. (Not that I would ever be allowed to stay on the site long enough to make any significant impact.)
Regardless, I agree that is a valid question on why any genuinely true and faithful theist would enter this site thinking they can come in here and tell us something so profound that it would cause us all to run out and get baptized as soon as possible. As it is, all we seem to get here most of the time are ridiculous trolls who arrive for the simple purpose of gaslighting and spreading ridiculous nonsense for their own amusement. It is, sadly, very rare for an honest theist to visit us asking sincere questions for the purpose of actually learning something. And even those do not last very long on here once they discover they do not like the truth we tell them because it makes them start having doubts about their faith. Which, again, begs the question on why they ever came here in the first place.
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Granted. Debate, if productive, involves presenting an argument, rebutting the opposing side’s arguments…all employing logic, evidence and a reasoned approach.
When an atheist is debating religion with a theist, one side is employing a cognitive orientation and the other is presenting a cognitive bias. From my experience, this merely creates two intractable positions neither will budge from.
To my mind, this is not debate…it’s more like performative conflict.
It would be refreshing to actually have a debate with a theist. As it seems to happen around here, each side is operating under different rules of reasoning.
To me, this takes the challenge out of the process. It always seems to reduce down to a semantic loop from the theist.
I don’t disagree with you. However, as long as folks, atheist or theist, adhere to forum guidelines, they are welcome to participate. Engagement with anyone here is, of course, optional.
I couldn’t agree more. I am more curious about their early exposure to religion and what makes them believe in something they can neither see, touch, smell or taste.
A theist recently posted words to the effect that atheists are to be actively opposed as they are the theists polar opposite. This seems typical to the way “debate” goes between atheists and theists.
In the beginning of the 20th century, a British actress made a comment regarding the trial of Oscar Wilde. “Does it really matter what these affectionate people do — so long as they don’t do it in the streets and frighten the horses!”
There is more to debate than one side trying to convince the other in a pissing contest. In fact, I will argue that the primary goal isn’t to convince the other, but rather to inform and educate the silent bystanders, who might then learn something, or even change their opinion about stuff.
I don’t accept the premise of the question, since it is unevidenced and anecdotal, like religious beliefs.
If anyone critiques religious claims, then the factual assertions and the credence they deserve is all that is important, not the (why) motives behind those critiques.
Atheism requires no more epistemic basis than not believing in mermaids, or any other objectively unevidenced claims.
Atheism is not a claim or a belief that any deity or deities don’t exist, one more time for the apologists who get this wrong…atheism is not a claim or a belief that any deity or deities don’t exist, rinse and repeat that last, and consult a dictionary until it sinks in.
Now…give me the best reason you think you have that any deity or deities exist?
It’s your claim, so no one has to offer alternatives….
True. Questioning motives implies / suggests that there can be no honest factual basis for critiques, and that all critics are dishonest and invalid. I don’t recall an instance where such an objection was anything but a deflection.
Yes, Ma’am, I understand that. And, as I said, I welcome any theist who wants to show up here for the purpose of having a genuine discussion about their chosen faith. However, considering the considerably restrictive parameters limiting the activities of many/most of those of Abrahamic faiths, it still begs the question of what would possess them to want to jump into the pit of their god’s sworn enemies and potentially tarnish their precious souls in the process? Yes, we all know they are compelled by their bible to seek out those of non-belief and spread the Holy Words of their Savior in Heaven. But what happens to them if they leave here starting to have doubts about their god and bible? What could they possibly gain from putting their faith at such a high risk? (Rhetorical question, by the way.) For most of the truly faithful who never question their bible/god, I can only imagine they would likely be way too afraid to make a profile and join this site. Personally, when I was a kid/young adult, the mere mention of the word “atheist” was enough to fill me with a feeling of uneasy dread. Never would have even DREAMED of joining any type of platform to have extended conversations with numerous atheists. (And I was never even fully committed to the Christian faith in which I was raised. Always had too many questions and doubts.)
Anyway, I admit I would be curious to know the primary motivation(s) for a genuinely godly theist to join this site. From what most of have already seen over the years, they certainly don’t arrive here looking for a good debate. Most just want to preach and quote bible verses as if we are hanging onto their every word in the hopes their chosen god will save our unworthy souls from eternal damnation. It’s almost comical, in a way.
Same here. I was taught to be afraid of “mere human reasoning” and did not think atheists had anything to offer me but snares for my faith which I was supposed to avoid. While it did occur to me that my faith was fragile in that it needed all that protection, I somehow never made the connection that this might be a red flag that it was founded on sand.
I’ve been on … let’s see … two other forums prior to this where I spent significant time, and a couple others that were more short-lived, over a period of probably 20 years, and in all that time, all the drive-by theist posts could be fairly described as you say, except for about 5% who were pushing some unusual theistic ideas of their own, different enough that most Christians would disavow them or at least be very uneasy with them. And then there was one guy out of all those years who I ended up having genuine interchanges with, who was respectful and kind and non-proselytizing and a reasonably clear thinker, relatively speaking. And I think the difference was that he wasn’t selling anything. He could care less if I bought his holy horseshit or not. He just liked to discuss topics around meaning and belief and I even occasionally learned something from him.
One guy. Twenty years.
Well there was one other guy, a more traditional liberal Christian, who DID end up saying words to the effect that “I understand why you don’t believe and you’re right, there’s zero evidence. I believe what I do purely because I prefer to. I can’t justify it to you or prove it. It just makes me happy”. And I give that guy props for intellectual honesty. In essence he’s deluded and knows it but doesn’t mind because they are his happy thoughts. And I can respect that more than some Bible-thumping asshole any day of the week.
My response to the “you have no faith in anything” mythology fanboy attempt at a pejorative, is to state “precisely - because ‘faith’ consists of nothing more than uncritical acceptance of unsupported blind assertions, and this is useless as a means of obtaining genuine, substantive knowledge”.
Instead, I accept as valid, postulates that are supported by proper evidence. For example, are those postulates the product of an error free deduction in an appropriate formal system, such as pure mathematics? Or are the postulates in question demonstrably in accord with observational reality, preferably found to be thus by proper experimental tests?
If you have nothing of this sort to offer, then your recourse to “faith” is nothing more than a waste of your time and mine.
You pretty much just described my little brother. He has always been caught up in “The Church” and has been a member of several different Christian denominations throughout his life. He and I have had a few chats here and there after I made my break away from the indoctrination about 8 years ago. I explain my views and reasonings/logic regarding the bible and the god therein, and (for the most part) he actually agrees with my conclusions and says he understands why I put no faith in any of it. And, much like the guy you mentioned, he admits he believes and worships primarily because it makes him feel good and gives him peace of mind. He is a very smart and rational guy. Hell, I dare say he may even have me beat in a few intellectual areas. Still, he believes anyway. Sure, I may not agree with his choice, and I may scratch my head in bafflement as to how/why he disregards all the obvious contradictions and inconsistencies of his chosen faith, but I can’t really fault him using whatever helps him to cope with life. At least he is honest about it.
If someone says, god/allah/yaweh/whatever is/isn’t real, that’s the truth claim.
Usually, theists will say god is real and atheists will respond, prove it with concrete evidence. And sometimes people will say atheists are the ones making the truth claim.
Atheists will only make a truth claim if they are the first ones to say god isn’t real. but most of the time, throughout all of history, it’s the theists who made the claim and institutionalized it
Hope you get to use that little tidbit now and then.