As we all know? Who is we? Moral? Like what? What aisle?
What evidence do you have to prove your statements, Keith?
So a first cause argument then, but these fail and have been debunked for several reasons.
Did you not know that the authorship of the four canonical gospels are unknown?
- The earliest explicit references to these specific authors date to the early 2nd century.
- None of the authors explicitly identify themselves in the text.
- Early manuscript evidence shows that titles varied, and scribes placed them in different parts of the texts, indicating they were later additions rather than original to the writings.
Wikipedia covers this quite well CITATION
That the bible is rife with erroneous claims is even easier to fact check. A couple of pretty obvious ones are the Genesis creation myth, which gets even the most basic chronology of the formation of the solar system wrong, and the Noah’s flood myth, since the geological record demonstrates unequivocally no global flood has ever occurred.
Though of course one does not need to refute claims in the bible, since it’s core claim for an extant deity is not supported by any objective evidence.
Well, I knew those would be the standard “proofs” for rebuttal–although there’s much Biblical scholarship to show that the Gospels were actually written by the ones to whom they’re attributed–and were, in fact, all written prior to A.D. 70 (with the exception of John’s Revelation, which was likely written in the early 90s while he was on the isle of Patmos). In fact, there are over 50,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, far more than the writings of Socrates, Plato, etc.
So, for the sake of discussion, let’s change the focus from evidential to existential:
- Why are you here?
- What happens when you die?
- What are the infinitesimal odds that no two humans, snowflakes, butterflies, etc., are unique or one-of-a-kind in DNA, design, etc.?
- Why have you chosen to disbelieve in all of the written, historical and archaeological evidence that point to a uncaused First Cause by One Who is immaterial, timeless, spaceless, infinite, omnipotent, knowable, etc.?
They’re evidence not proofs, proofs are for logic and mathematics. If you already knew this evidence existed why did you ask for it?
No citation offered, also the claim is vague, what does “much biblical scholarship” mean, and why is this unevidenced anecdote more relevant than the objective fact that the earliest copies of the canonical gospel myths identify no authors?
Also you didn’t address the citation offered at all, only listed some bare claims without any citations. You entirely ignored the examples of erroneous biblical claims a swell, I have a limited patience for this sort of dishonesty in debate, since you asked for evidence, and then ignored it.
Despite you ignoring my post largely, I will humour you for now, but my patience will evaporate if this turns into proselytising.
- I don’t accept the premise assumed in your question, that is any overarching reason for human existence, since you present no objective evidence to support your assumption.
- My heart will stop beating, then my brain will die, and all brain activity will cease, from the lack of oxygen, then the cells in my body will decay at various rates.
- I don’t know what the odds against it are, but the probability of unique humans, DNA and butterflies existing, is the highest possible, since according probability theory an event that has happened is a 1, and that is the highest probability there is.
- I am not aware of any objective evidence for any deity, nor have I seen any historical evidence for any deity, nor have I seen any archaeological evidence for any deity, you also seem again to be making multiple unevidenced assumptions in your question, that are as much in need of evidentiary support as your core claim for a deity as a first cause.
Lets cut to the chase. present the best evidence you think you have for the existence of a deity, explain which deity, and accurately define it with objective evidence that supports any claims made.
The consensus of theologians of course has it on a much shorter leash ranging from AD 70 to 90. While I think they are deploying motivated reasoning, there is some textual evidence for dates earlier than “at least 200 years”. It is just that there’s no significant manuscripts datable prior to “at least 200 years”.
I think a lot of laypersons don’t realize that grammatical styles, language evolution, what is or is not referenced or assumed re: certain historical events, and some other stuff can lend some credence to earlier dating even absent surviving manuscripts that old.
I do not shrink from this fact even though it is mildly inconvenient to my sense that later dates are probably getting short shrift. Even if the gospels were written the day of the crucifixion it doesn’t change that the authorships are traditional attributions, that the gospels disagree with each other in significant ways, and that they are not in any way “eyewitness accounts”. They are fabulist hearsay.
Similarly there are no conclusive arguments either way about the historicity of Jesus. That doesn’t mean the mythicist point of view isn’t defensible.
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Sheldon, if all we are is a bunch of connective tissue, protoplasm, muscle, bones and sinews, etc. without purpose, this is an incredibly fatalistic, meaningless world and a farce. And, ultimately, we’re no different than a dead dog or skunk on the side of the road. Thankfully, we are created on purpose with a Purpose–and that’s what gives us a reason to wake up in the morning.
That’s a pretty dysfunctional and negative way to look at life.
There is no bestowed purpose but there is an endless supply of chosen purpose and meaning. I enjoy a rich, rewarding existence doing meaningful things that matter to me and relating to people that I care about and that gives me great contentment. I am sorry that your view of life is so constrained and barren as you portray it.
That’s another of your unevidenced subjective opinions of course, and it doesn’t remotely evidence a deity. Wanting your beliefs to be true, is not objective evidence, it is subjective bias.
After we die? Yes the objective evidence suggests you’re right, did you have a point beyond stating an objective fact?
We are not created though, it is an objective fact that like all living things we evolved, and you have presented yet another unevidenced subjective claim, this one at odds with objective scientific fact.
Well that subjective preference may well be what you derive meaning from, so what?
It doesn’t remotely evidence any deity?
- You have failed to even try and objectively evidence any deity.
- That you would prefer an afterlife is not evidence for one.
- That you would prefer our lives to have an overarching purpose is not evidence that it does.
Well, once again, Sheldon, your responses are also subjective and a result of volition: choosing to ignore the obvious evidence of a Creator that’s all around us (e.g., photosynthesis, gravity, right balance of atmospheric gases to sustain life, etc.). So, it would seem the onus is on you, not me: because my choice to believe that there’s more to life than meets the eye is more preferable than your fatalistic denial that there isn’t.
Such is not the case, Mordant. I’m glad you’re enjoying a rich, rewarding existence doing meaningful things that matter to you:” but, ultimately, that still doesn’t answer the question of why we’re here and what ultimately gives us meaningful purpose in life.
Species evolution is not remotely subjective, it is an objective scientific fact that all living things evolve slowly.
That is plainly a lie, I have asked you twice to present the best reason you think you have for believing a deity exists and you haven’t even tried to do so. Just stated your own subjective preferences. Nor did I ignore these, as anyone can see I have expansive reposes above, which you have largely ignored?
None of those objectively evidence any deity? They all have entirely natural scientific explanations as well of course, but even if they did not why would you assume they objectively evidence any deity? If I was a gambling man I’d bet your first instinct will be to respond with yet another question, in the form an argumentum ad ignorantiam response.
Well there you go, you have stated unequivocally that your belief is just your personal preference, nothing more than unevidenced wishful thinking. The last bit is a straw man of course.
That doesn’t leave anything to debate really, as I am happy to accept your subjective beliefs are no more than unevidenced wishful thinking. Especially as your claims are often at odds with objective facts.
JC
Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus and anyone who believes in an intelligently designing creator has an equally good claim for their particular god being the true one. The scientific evidence isn’t exclusive to Jesus. But if you think it is, then please show us where the evidence unequivocally speaks the name Jesus.
What is actually happening in your mind is that BY FAITH you believe that Jesus must be the one true god. And this also happens in the minds of Jews, Sikhs, etc. Thus there is a level playing field where any one of these candidate gods could be the true one. The issue remains undecided and has been undecided for centuries.
But you can resolve this question by presenting objective evidence for Jesus being the true god. Not an argument that any theist can use, like the Thermodynamic argument or the Fine Tuned Universe argument - but evidence showing that definitively and unequivocally declares the true identity of the creator.
Again, your faith is not such an argument. Again, scientific evidence can be used by any theist for their particular god and so doesn’t qualify as truly objective evidence. No. Only evidence that shows the name of Jesus, written somewhere in creation.
Written in the shape of galaxies or written in on the surface of the DNA molecule.
Where is the name of Jesus written in the created universe, JC?
Please show us.
Your points are well-taken, Walter, and–as you already know–you’ll not found Jesus’ Name written anywhere in the created universe. However, in books like Signature In the Cell by Stephen Meyer, we once again realize there’s much more at work behind the scenes than meets the eye. So, again, it comes down to a volitional choice to believe or not believe the evidential proof that’s all around us (and within us).
Sheldon, your responses are also very pointed and aggressive–even though I seek to be heard and understood. I’m just curious as to why you always come across condescending toward those (like me) who hold a Faith-position in life?
This is a claim, it’s not objective evidence. Species evolution is an objective fact, and an underpinned by an accepted scientific theory, presenting the subjective opinion of one author as if that overturns or refutes over a century and a half of global scientific research and facts, is simply risible. Atheism rises sharply among scientists and exponentially among elite scientific groups, again this is an objective fact that is at odds with any claim (as yet unevidenced) that there is scientific evidence for any deity.
You’ve presented none?
What is it you’re claiming I have not understood?
I have no control over how you perceive the arguments and facts I present, I suspect you’re simply too emotionally invested in your religious beliefs to be objective on the matter. You have reeled off claims without even the pretence of objective evidence, your assertion for evidence are themselves nothing more than unevidenced subjective claims, when asked to clarify you simply move on and ignore this. You ask questions and then ignore the responses, and ignore questions addressed to you, just take a look above?
Give me one scientific piece of evidence for any deity then, but don’t just present a subjective claim. You keep claiming it exists lets see some, not simply pointing at scientific ideas and claiming they are evidence.
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Well, once again, Sheldon, ours is a circular or cyclical discussion where we both end back up at our original starting points–which is one reason I chose “Just Curious” as my name in this forum. It’s just hard for me to understand why you won’t see things the beautiful balance (and design) of things like photosynthesis, gravity, DNA, etc., as evidence of a Creator–especially when it’s so obvious.
Yes, exactly as Sheldon has pointed out.
Given that you have conceded that there exists no definitive evidence that Jesus is the one true god and given that you know full well we will only accept objective evidence and not volitional choices, what are you trying to achieve in this forum?
To be heard and understood?
We hear you and understand you perfectly well. But unless and until you come up with the goods (objective evidence for your claims) we don’t hear or understand anything of value from you.
You can change that.
Objective evidence please!
One of the biggest forms of evidence is to compare the book of Genesis with what we know to be true through science, such as the fact that the earth is some 4.5 billion years old and not only 6,000 years. How could a “perfect God” not know how he allegedly created the world and universe. One of the best books on the subject of errors in the Bible is C.Dennis McKinsey’s The Encyclopedia Of Biblical Errancy and if that’s not enough, read David Mills’ book Atheist Universe. Of course, there are many more!
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Obvious to you BY FAITH.
Just as it is obvious (by faith) to a Muslim that Allah is the creator.
Just as it is obvious (by faith) to a Jew that Yahweh is the creator.
Just as it is…
Need I go on?
Objective evidence and not faith-based proselytizing please.
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