So, before i begin. i’m a young french so i will do my best to not hurt your eyes with my english
I’ve always been a atheist. I love having a critical thinking and i love science. and so, i’ve always considered religion to be a big problems for humanity. but i wanted to see religious people arguments of my own eyes. and so i went to the religious subforum of a famous french discution forum. very soon. christianity was already destroyed in my head by all the flaws in it… but islam… that was another story. it as almost not to any contradiction in is book. the story of their prophet wich is documented in the hadith that are collected by an almost scientific method is very disturbing for any islam critic and visibly when quran talk about science.he succed by being so blurr in is definiton that it is “technically correct”. i’m still miles away of converting into islam. dont worry ^^’. But i wonder if some atheist here have studied islam a bit and could help me to deal with their arguments ?
In my experience (an example from this forum), their claims are incredibly exaggerated. But it might help if you could point us to one in particular.
Hi, ask him what objective evidence he can demonstrate for any deity? Even if no claims in the koran are contradicted by scientific knowledge, ask how that remotely evidence any deity?
Why? Assuming this claim were true, and it is not btw, how does this evidence any supernatural claims or god claims in islam?
As Nyarl says, it’s a difficult thing to discuss in the abstract, so if you can offer a specific claim. It’s also my experience that such claims for scientific validity are either grossly exaggerated, extremely tenuous, or flat out false.
If science remotely evidenced the Islamic deity, is it reasonable do you think, that only that religion’s adherents would have noticed?
Science in Islam? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !
You can’t be fucking serious. You got taken in with that bullshit science crap? Really? Oh fuck, I hope this story has a happy ending,.
No contradictions in the Quaran? IT’S ONE FUCKING BOOK/. The bible is a collection of 73 books (Catholic Bible) 27 books in the new testament (Christian bible.) The Bible is not a book, it is an anthology. To be fair, you will need to include all the Hadith in the comparison. (NOW YOU HAVE YOUR CONTRADICTIONS)
What was man created from: blood, clay, dust, or nothing?
- “Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood,” (96:2).
- "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
- “The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: “Be”. And he was,” (3:59).
- “But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?” (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
- "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).
Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur’an?
- “Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things,” (2:256).
- “And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,–that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith,” (9:3).
- “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful,” (9:5).
- Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).
The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?
- “And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam,” (39:12).
- "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: “O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee.” Allah said: “By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me.” When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: “Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe.” (7:143).
- "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; “Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam,” (2:132).
Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?
- Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116
- The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: “Show us Allah in public,” but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).
Are Allah’s decrees changed or not?
- “Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers,” (6:34).
- "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
- None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106).
- When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, “Thou art but a forger”: but most of them understand not," (16:101).
Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?
- "We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): “Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!” (10:90-92).
- Moses said, “Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!” So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-1
Is wine consumption good or bad?
- O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,–of Satan’s handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90).
- (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell forever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).
- Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).
Then there are all the stupid STUPID scientific claims. “A fetus looks like chewing gum.” How in the fuck would they know that? UMMMM Because they were goat herders perhaps!! They saw hundreds of aborted goats and camels perhaps.
OH MAN… I AM STILL HOPING THIS NONSENSE HAS A HAPPY ENDING. (BACK TO THE POST)
Post one scientific fact that is in the Quaran that was not common knowledge at the time. Just one!
Bonjour, welcome to Atheist Republic.
Personally, I am very ignorant about Islam. But I can suggest methods you should use when you study Islam.
First off, I encourage you to study epistemology. If you can learn this discipline, then it will be of great value in finding the truth.
Secondly, I will describe one of my methods. In almost every case, a proposition is generated by a series of points. Each and every point, each examined on it’s own merits, must be proven true. Only if that condition is satisfied, then the conclusion may be valid. If any point cannot be accepted and proven, then the conclusion, no matter how appealing, can not be accepted.
Third, I suggest you learn what “faulty logic” is, and the many fallacies. For example the “Black swan fallacy”, or the “no true scotsman” fallacy.
Arm yourself with knowledge, because it is power.
Very well put, I must say.
I am pretty ignorant on Islam, but I have heard talk of a flying horse in that religion.
Do you think flying horses exist or ever have existed?
Pegasus? I think he might be myth, like Mohammed’s.
HOWEVER, do not despair for verily I have good news. I can say for a fact that dragons exist. I know because I have one. Trevor is a welsh green and lives under my house.His wing span is 32 feet and he lets me ride him sometimes…
Feeding Trevor has always been difficult. I began by feeding him one of the neighbourhood children. The family had five, so I didn’t think they’d notice, but they did,and became quite hysterical… so no more local children. Today I feed him homeless people. He’s very partial to the drunks.
I’d truly like to invite you all over to meet Trevor. I can’t because he would eat you. I guess you’ll just have to take my word for it (Trevor doesn’t allow photos)—I figure if millions of people believe in a flying horse called Baraq, they’ll believe in a dragon called Trevor.
Waiting for that one scientific fact from the Quaran that is so damn impressive.
Aha, busted, Welsh dragons is red, as any fool-nose.
Cymru am byth.
[quote=“Sheldon, post:10, topic:235”]
Cymru am byth
Na, dwi ddim yn siarad Cymraeg
That’s ok, I only have a few words myself, sad to say. My friends are nearly all Welsh speakers, their first language.
As silly as the Red Welsh Dragon comment was, I actually did a search. You are 100% correct. Welsh dragons are RED! I learn something new every day on this site. I also do some searches on really silly shit! Ha ha ha …
I am Welsh, born and bred, so it’d be embarrassing if I didn’t know what our flag looked like. If it helps the background is half green…
Trevor is Welsh. He’s very young. Welsh dragons change from a deep green to a nice autumn hue as they mature.
First off, welcome!!!
I’m much more familiar with Christianity myself, but one odd belief that some Muslims have is that Muhammad cut the moon in half:
Surah Al-Qamar 54: 1 – 2: The Hour has come near, and the moon has split [in two]. And if they see a miracle, they turn away and say, “Passing magic.”
I’ve discovered that religious people do what I call bad error correcting. They assume that their holy book is perfect and thus, there cannot be anything wrong with it. They will either minimize it, say that the witness must have meant something else, or go to something like “god can do anything” to justify any problems in their religion. This is cognitive dissonance; they are making excuses to believe what they want to. To make matters worse, many times their understanding of science is lacking. Even if it isn’t, they will just say that the verses with a scientific problem shouldn’t be taken literally, like the moon verse, and is a metaphor for something else. Maybe it hasn’t happened yet. Look how fast I could come up with things to explain it away and they do this for any contradiction or problem. If you want a good example of this, go look at Biblical scholars and their insane answers for problems in the Bible that they honestly believe. In short, I wouldn’t attack them here.
Instead, go for how do they know what they believe is true. Faith is a bad epistemology. Once you faith god and a whole holy book into your model, using faith to explain away a few contradictions and science problems is easy. If you are in the habit of using a bad epistemology, it is easy to continue doing it. I’ve wasted so much time arguing over contradictions. The fact is there is no justifiable reason for using faith in modeling reality. If you can convince them here, it will change the rest of their thinking.
Waiting for that one scientific fact from the Quaran that is so damn impressive.
- This known universe is accelerating in it’s expansion.
- The element gold is created only in the collision of two neutron stars.
- The recent dimming of Betelgeuse was a result of a massive starspot
- Horses can fly.
The point is that if I offer three valid mind-blowing scientific facts, that does not guarantee that the fourth is valid or true.
That is what con-men and religious types do. They list a lot of truths, then inject a falsehood, leading one to accept it. Many sermons follow that pattern. The begin with very sound common-sense concepts. But at the end of the sermon, they are talking flying horses and talking snakes.
Still waiting for that one specific fact of science from the Quaran.
Has the thread author even been back since creating the OP? This is a tired old trick some theists seems to enjoy, start a thread, ask a question that they think implies a religion’s god claim has some validity, then run away from their drive by…sometimes they pretend they’re atheists, for some inexplicable reason?