The Death and Resurrection of Jesus/gospel narratives is highly historically attested according to mainstream scholars

Debate Room
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So how do you historically explain the SCHOLARLY assessment by the VAST MAJORITY of NT scholars that agree upon for the HISTORICAL evidences for the resurrection:

  1. gospels are the most attested documents in ancient history - more than the top 10 classics combined – as stated by most all mainstream NT scholars

  2. VIRTUALLY ALL scholars agree that the disciples did think they saw the resurrected Jesus OVER 40 DAYS, mass hallucinations are not possible. Atheist scholar Dr. Gerd Ludemann concludes ‘it may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus’ death at which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ’

  3. ALL disciples, Paul - independent of disciples and not known christian killer, agnostic james went to their deaths proclaiming what they saw, ate with, heard from, touched OVER 40 DAYS. NOT ONE RECANTED. they (or anyone else) would NEVER willingly die for a complete and total liar, loser, fraud, lunatic, dead criminal. New Testament scholar Dr. Luke Johnson states ‘some sort of powerful, transformative experience is required to generate the sort of movement earliest Christianity was.’”

  4. sociocultural, religious upheaval that happened in the Jewish community right after the resurrection. 10,000 jews converted in 5 weeks. unprecedented in jewish history. JEWS DO NOT GIVE UP THEIR WHOLE EXISTENCE - family, job, social status, eternity in the jewish faith - FOR A LIE OR MYTH

There has NOT been a viable naturalistic explanation in scholarship for these evidences except that the disciples/Christian killer Paul/agnostic James ALL did see the resurrected Jesus over 40 days.

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Welcome to Atheist Republic JC1423

The bible is the claim, not the proof.

There are zero extraneous accounts of this jesus.

@JC1432 Can you provide any evidence this jesus existed without resorting to the bible?

Proof of commitment is not proof anything existed. Nineteen people were willing to fly hijacked airliners into buildings because of their religious commitment.

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Argumentum ad populum

This is a fallacy, the appeal to popularity. At one time almost everyone believed the earth was flat. At one time almost everyone was of the opinion that tobacco smoke was harmless.

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Argumentum Ad Ignorantiam and Appeal to Faith Fallacy

It’s not just Christianity. Over 20,000 Americans convert to Islam annually and they worship Allah. Not your god.

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thanks for welcoming me. i look forward to talking with you. the extraneous accounts are listed below with what the top scholars say about extraneous evidence. but to start. there is a 100% difference between the disciples, christian killer paul, and agnostic jame vs the terrorists. ALL the disciples KNEW what they SAW first hand over 40 days, many places and times. christian killer paul didn’t instantly convert, walk over 1,000 miles proclaiming the gospel and willingly be beheaded for a known lie. same with james. ALL would never willingly die for a KNOWN lie of something witnessed first hand. the terrorists only BELIEVE in what a pedophlle said 1400 years ago, they never witnessed the muhammad account, with has no witnesses, external corroboration, and other sources - like the disciples witnessing and knowing firsthand. totally different

listen to what one of the top skeptic scholars in the world says: “There is no scholar of any college or university in the Western world who teaches classics, ancient history, New Testament, early Christianity, or any related field who doubts that Jesus existed…I think atheists have done themselves a disservice by jumping on the bandwagon of mythicism because frankly it makes you look foolish to the outside world…The idea that Jesus did not exist is a modern notion. It has no ancient precedents. It was made up in the 18th century.” States agnostic NT scholar Dr. Bart Ehrman

“Few, if any, New Testament scholars claim that Jesus never existed”(exact text from: Dr. Norman Geisler and Dr. Frank Turek). How could they? Jesus is cited by 40 sources within 150 years of his life- and 10 of these are non-christian sources*; by contrast, the Roman emperor Tiberius at the time of Jesus is only mentioned by only 10 sources. If you believe Tiberius existed, how can you not admit the same about a man who is cited by 4 times as many people and has an immeasurably greater impact on history?

The story line from NON-CHRISTIAN sources matches the story line in the New Testament.

There are 10 NON-CHRISTIAN sources* [which is a lot for ancient sources; like Josephus, jewish historian; Tacitus, roman historian, Thallus Seutonius, Emperor Trajan, Pliny the Younger and others] that write about Jesus within the first 150 years of His life, talk about the events of Jesus, the resurrection, and CONFIRMS THEM:

His disciples believed He rose from the dead

*His disciples were willing to die for their belief of what they saw firsthand

*His disciples denied the roman gods and worshipped Jesus as God

*He was a wonder worker (used to indicate something like sorcery/miracles)

*He was acclaimed to be the Messiah

*Darkness/eclipse and earthquake occurred when he died

  • He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover

*He was crucified under Pontius Pilot

*He lived a virtuous life

*Christianity spread rapidly as far as Rome

*He lived during the time of Tiberius Caesar

*Had a brother named James

This story line from NON-CHRISTIAN sources matches the story line in the New Testament. This confirms without a doubt that the story of Jesus in the New Testament is not based on myths and fables. To say that Jesus never existed is clearly unreasonable. Few, if any, New Testament scholars claim that Jesus never existed

(exact text from: Dr. Norman Geisler and Dr. Frank Turek)

*The NON-CHRISTIAN sources that make some reference to Jesus and/or the early Christian movement are: Josephus, Jewish historian; Tacitus, roman historian; Pliny the Younger, roman governor in northern Turkey area; Suetonius; Thallus; Celsus; Lucian of Samosata; Mara bar Serapion and certain Jewish rabbinic traditions (Talmud). Plus all the church fathers like Clement of Rome; Polycarp; Tertullian; Ignatious…

Just on NON-BIBLICAL Ignatius, Polycarp, and Clement of Rome’s non-biblical writings (they are the students of John, paul, and John) from the late 1st century – we would know the gospels from their writings

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argument ad poplulum is not a correct assertion here. i have read critics and mainstream scholars alike, what is presented to you is what the majority of TOP experts say in this field of study. are you saying that is not a correct stance to take? surely you are not against expert analysis.

saying the world was flat is not a good analogy, we are in the 21st century with advancements in ALL areas of life exponentially more quantitatively more studied within this information age they did not have then

so the bottom line is: can you refute the evidences supporting the resurrection that the top scholars are saying is SOLID evidences? this is a yes or no answer. you either can refute it or you can’t

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Shifting the Burden of Proof. David has made no claims and it’s not our job to verify your superstitions for you. The Burden of Proof is your responsibility seeing as you’re making god claims and using (Fallacy of Imaginary Evidence). The Bible is a claim, not evidence.

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Welcome, @JC1432.

Going straight to the big guns right out of the gate - it’s a technique.

Have you searched and read what’s already covered this subject here? In doing so, one may be further prepared for the retorts that will soon ensue. And it may save some time in the service of non-repetition.

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honestly, i’m giving you scholarship, evidences and quotes from them you may have never heard of. in all the time i have been doing this NO ONE has refuted the evidences i have presented from the expert scholars supporting the resurrection.

so this is an opportunity for you to show me that i believe in fairytales by refuting the scholarship. most all atheists run away, divert, or say something not well thought out. i hope it is different here on this forum so i can be - and i want to be -corrected in my ways.

i want to live a life of truth, because if God does not exist, then i want to party hard and do tons of fun sins for my own benefit

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Honesty is trading at a deflated value these days, it seems.

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you do not have to verify the SCHOLARSHIP i have given you. why do you have the feeling to call mainstream, top experts in the field, why do you call their studies, evidences, and conclusions superstition? that is honestly not very smart. like below, you are given quantitative evidences supporting the resurrection. either you want your eternity based on truth or lies, it is up to you. but if you have no interest in refuting solid evidences from experts , then you have a HIGH risk of basing YOUR eternity on lies. below is what THEY say

the death and resurrection of Jesus is THE MOST attested event in ancient history - more abundantly supported manuscripts than the BEST 10 pieces of classical literature COMBINED.

24,000 manuscript NT copies (5,600 Greek) - 2nd place is homer Iliad at 2,400 (650 Greek).
Paul wrote about the death and resurrection of Jesus within 20 years after death of Jesus. Most all ancient biographies were written about 500 years after death of person,

reputable Alexander the Great biography was written about 400 years after death by just 2 people and no one refutes the events. Studies show that back then it took about 150 - 200 years after death to develop a myth. Paul’s timeline obliterates your lies of a myth.

Most all ancient biographies are single source, one biography. Historians drool if there are two independent sources. The Gospels have 5 – multiple independent sources - including Paul.

The New Testament is #1 in lack of textual variance for ancient documents, confirmed 99.5% pure of textual variance (Dr. Bruce Metzger). "The textual purity of the New Testament is rarely questioned in scholarship " (Dr. Michael Licona). No other book is so well authenticated

No ancient document comes close to the New Testament in attestation. The New Testament documents have more manuscripts, earlier manuscripts, and more abundantly supported manuscripts than the BEST 10 pieces of classical literature COMBINED Not even a competition!

(sources: Dr. Benjamin Warfield, Dr. Bruce Metzger, Dr. Daniel Wallace, Dr. William Lane Craig, Dr. Craig Blomberg, Dr. Gary Habermas, Dr. F F Bruce, Dr Edwin Yamauchi, Dr John McRay, Dr Gregory Boyd, Dr Ben Witherington III, Dr Gary Collins, Dr D A Carson, Dr Alexander Metherall, Dr J P Moreland, Dr. Craig Keener, Dr. Craig Evans, Dr. Michael Licona, Dr. Norman Geisler, Dr. Frank Turek and many other mainstream scholars are saying that)

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Argumentum Ad Populum and Fallacy of Imaginary Evidence. The Bible was written by men. Those are unsubstantiated claims.

What objective evidence can you yourself demonstrate for any resurrection let alone the existence of any deity?

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It is my pleasure. A bit about me. I am not antagonistic against theists, we have a lot more in common than differences. We live, we love, we have families and jobs, we watch crazy TV shows, and enjoy a cold beer on a hot Sunday night as we watch football. (go Bears lol)

I have never claimed that. It is reasonable to assume that in that era there was an itinerant discontent who wandered around and gathered followers. There were many that did such in that time and place. But the fact that this dude may have existed is not proof in any way that it was the son of a god and performed miracles.

And before pen was put to paper, it was passed along in oral tradition. It was at least one complete generation before anything was written about this jesus dude. I compare the story of jesus to the stories of Robin Hood and King Arthur. No one can nail down exactly who they were, when and where they lived. IMO there was a dude, stories gathered around this person, and other personalities melded together. It made for very nice stories.

I requested extraneous accounts of this jesus. Please provide them. So far all that has been stated is that there are many. Proofs, references, links please.

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And Michael Jordan scored 32,292 points. He wins.

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:joy::joy::joy: You are apparently oblivious to how badly you totally contradicted yourself in just that one statement. :joy::joy::joy:…

You claim you want to “live a life of TRUTH”! :innocent: Yet, because you believe your god exists, you are living a life of “righteous piosness”, but only because you are afraid of what your god will do to you if you do not worship it. Meanwhile, you are completely denying how you would truly PREFER to be living. And based on your statement, you would PREFER to live as an irresponsible, selfish, party-head social parasite. Therefore, you come here and request (DEMAND) that WE godless heathens help you to prove YOUR GOD does not exist, so that you will be free to live your life in the manner you TRULY wish to live it.

Hate to break it to you, pal, but it does not take an Omniscient god to see straight through THAT bullshit. :joy::joy: (Oh, and welcome to the AR.)

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Welcome to the forum @JC1432
I am glad I waited a bit to jump in here. If this was not sarcasm, then you are really confused about morality and hedonism as you are relating them to Atheism. If you are only behaving yourself because of your belief in God, then by all means, keep believing.
At the risk of being redundant and repeating myself over and over again with repetition, making all of your worn out claims and then demanding falsification from those here who are willing to give you an opportunity to state your case, IS shifting the burden of proof.

Wow! ever give in to GLARING GENERALITIES? Would you drink from a well that you knew I had pissed in ?
You are a dishonest interlocutor.
Many here are already aware of the specious clams and sources you have cited and are weary of the unsupported assertions permeating your argument.
You are clearly confused as to what Atheism means when you assume Atheists are all Mythicists.
Evidence is what is needed, not claims, assertions, references to people who told stories or believed other peoples stories, etc…Welcome to you anyway.

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Yeah and you didn’t even need your glasses for this one…

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Nope. I have refuted this canard so many times on these pages. The claims that you make are NOT supported in the texts you state are supportive of your exaggerated wishful thinking. I can go through each one for you and point out the errors you are making. But before I do would it make any difference to you? Would you, when confronted by the evidence that you claim is irrefutable is refuted? Would you back down and admit that that Tacitus for instance did not claim or write as a witness to your jesus figure. But did indeed write about a criminal sect of Jews in 60CE? That he wrote this hearsay some 70 years AFTER the events he describes?

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I am sorry to have to tell you this because we have not really ever interacted herein, but NO, NO, and No it would not make any difference. Your first clue would be “Josephus”…

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So your metric for truth here is the number of manuscripts? Exactly where is the threshold between truth and fiction by the metrics you put forward here? Obviously, according to your own argument, it should be somewhere between 24000 and 2400 (if we take your numbers at face value). Thus, a single old document, the only one of its kind, on any other subject than that covered by the Christian Bible, can not tell true history? Or are you just comparing apples and oranges here, hoping that noone would see the difference?

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