Sad 😢 Texas Taliban

[Whitefire13]

I’m well aware of those babies. They land up unadoptable, if they survive, and a “burden” on the taxpayer ( )… lifelong mental/physical health issues.

So, just to parrot back … YOU wouldn’t restrict abortion (even as a means of birth control) BUT “monitor” who’s getting it? Without paying it as “healthcare” (government) BUT the “monitoring” (private?) could then do a “forced sterilization” (is this private paid or government)?

IF it’s “private” then OOPS a “for-profit” sterilization program decided by (hey, can these guys be bought off? Like the judge who kept sending kids to jail for a kick-back???) WHO? A panel? A psychiatrist???

I’d prefer her running around getting pregnant and abortions then this “set-up”.

IF it’s about the kids being born all drug addicted and fucked up and a burden, then why NOT just do forced abortions on drug-tested women???

EDITED to add: Recently, we just sadly had a mass murderer (knifing) in Saskatchewan. The perp had obvious AFS (alcohol fetal syndrome). Why not just force abortions on any woman who fails any type of blood test when pregnant.

Edited to add-add: I’m well aware of the fallacy of the above Edited to add

[Kevin_Levites]

I’m sorry about the FAS person who stabbed people in Canada.

We have a similar situation here.

In Florida, a 19 year old maniac purchased an AR-15 assault rifle and went on a shooting rampage in a high school, and killed 17 people and wounded 17 more. He left the scene by throwing down his weapon, and mingling with the panicked students who were running out the door.

He was later captured because he went to a fast food place and sat down to have a soda.

His legal team is trying to get him out of the death penalty because his mother (assuming that we want to call her that, as I’m using the term as a convienence) had constantly abused cocaine, alcohol, and methamphetamine while she was pregnant with him . . . which is well-documented in her arrest records and subsequent drug tests.

This kid has been seeing psychologists, shrinks, and other specialists since he was 3 years old, and–due to flaws in the system–was never “red-flagged” from gun purchases. This is him:

If you examine the photos of him, you can see his small head diameter and slightly almond-shaped eyes that are the hallmark of many birth abnormalities . . . including FAS.

So, I don’t see him as responsible for his actions . . . but that’s me.

And yes, I think he should have been aborted.

[Whitefire13]

Our guy …

Died in custody of self-inflicted wound when apprehended.

[Cognostic]

LOL… Some people have problems and “Abortions” are the symptoms (Not the Soluition). Having an abortion is not healthcare. It is not ‘going to the dentist to remove a tooth.’ I fully agree you have a right to your own body and another life does not have the right to use your body to sustain itself. We have no disagreement there. Our only disagreement comes at what point does this right become a problem. I am asserting that “Abortions are not birth control.” Just because they are legal and you can control your own body, does not mean that you can have them whenever you want (abuse the system). Penicillin is a great drug but we control it. My assertion is that controls need to be in place so that people who need help can get the help they need. It does not infringe on your right to control your body or have an abortion.

[Kevin_Levites]

I may disagree with you, but I see your points and I respect your position.

There is a problem if a woman has to have 5, 6, 7, or 10 abortions . . . and I agree that abortions shouldn’t be treated like the equivalent of a “morning after” pill.

[Old_man_shouts_at_cl]

@Kevin_Levites

and I agree that abortions shouldn’t be treated like the equivalent of a “morning after” pill.

is it your uterus? Then why the fuck not? Is bodily autonomy a foreign concept amongst you US males? How about after 7 cancer operations, or 8 tooth extractions/fillings/crowns I give you a social worker to moderate your lifestyle, prevent you smoking drinking, breathing diesel fumes on the road, eating sugar…hey there’s an idea. that would probably prevent countless unwanted pregnancies, lock up the boys. Sheesh.

How about after your third child I give you a social worker to monitor your work habits, family time, quality interactions, clothing quality of the kids you fathered. Hey that would be good would it not?

Fuck me: libertarians one subject social dictators the next. Gets your heads in, chaps. Women are citizens, bodily autonomy is a thing. No Uterus? No vote, how about them apples?

[MrDawn]

@Old_man_shouts_at_cl

is it your uterus?

Nope. Therefore it ain’t no one’s business but the woman and her doctor. But ohhhhhh people, including the religtards, love to make things their business. They’re all on a bullshit imaginary high moral crusade.

@Old_man_shouts_at_cl

Then why the fuck not?

You’d think Christians would all be for abortion. Their god was all about genocide. In their holy book their god decides whether you live or not, “what, when, & where” as stated in Psalm 139: 16 and Isiah 45:7 about how it’s responsible for everything. That means if a serial killer murders someone, their god willed it to happen. Not to mention the flood and the millions of people he’s killed in their bible. Christians are hypocrites.

@Old_man_shouts_at_cl

Is bodily autonomy a foreign concept amongst you US males?

Yes. There’s a lot of misogynist males in Missouri that say that abortion is “murder”. I live in one of the biggest religtards states sitting near Texas that trigger banned abortion.

It’s one a size fits all law. It doesn’t work. The women who need abortions that could die from complications are basically being ignored.

@Old_man_shouts_at_cl

How about after 7 cancer operations, or 8 tooth extractions/fillings/crowns I give you a social worker to moderate your lifestyle, prevent you smoking drinking, breathing diesel fumes on the road, eating sugar…hey there’s an idea. that would probably prevent countless unwanted pregnancies, lock up the boys. Sheesh.

How about after your third child I give you a social worker to monitor your work habits, family time, quality interactions, clothing quality of the kids you fathered. Hey that would be good would it not?

Fuck me: libertarians one subject social dictators the next. Gets your heads in, chaps. Women are citizens, bodily autonomy is a thing. No Uterus? No vote, how about them apples?

I wonder how many men would squeal “My body, my choice” if the state issued mandatory vasectomies & castrations. It’s hypocritical of people to tell one another how to run their life. I don’t think men should have a say in what women do. It’s just that, men are not women, period. Therefor they shouldn’t have a say. Women should decide whether or not they want abortion to be illegal or legal. It’s not something men should have a say on.

[David_Killens]

@Whitefire13

Sorry. As a citizen I’m willing to pay for the less than one percent of one percent (one-offs) that would justify horrific restrictions on bodily autonomy.

That is a fundamental difference between cultures of different nations. For example, up here in Canada ALL Candians receive care and benefits. Heck, our government goes to great efforts to include everyone in the democratic process of voting. I don’t have to make any effort to register or stuff like that, I get a card in the mail.

And those unfortunates who fall to the side because of PTSD or mental or physical disability get help. They are not discarded as I witness in other nations.

Which is very unfortunate. A person joins the military, if they fall we hear the mantra “no man left behind”. But if they are rescued and go home, then they are casually discarded.

[skriten]

Sorry to jump in late but I have been dealing with kidney stones and Lithotripsy.
First, Cog, you are clearly holding massive double standards regarding government or authority intervention and interference in the lives of individuals. From your previous posts;
“We are speaking of government intrusion in the personal lives of citizens.” And
“ The issue is Government Intervention in the Personal Lives of Citizens” also “ Hence my comment… Don’t give up power and control to the government.” etc…. NOW you assert :

@Cognostic

The woman is not in control of her life and someone else needs to step in and take control or at least a serious look at what is going on. (YES - mandatory sterilization may be in order. Not only that I am in favor of Mandatory sterilization for Deadbeat dads as well. Any asshole that knocks up a woman and is not paying for the kids, does not get to go out and knock up another woman. Something is wrong here. Should the state be allowed to step in and prevent this asshole from creating more babies that he will not support? I say YES.)

@Cognostic

Example: Woman in and out of a mental hospital. Pregnant 7 times. 7 abortions. Schizophrenic. Surviving on the street as a prostitute. Using drugs.

Thanks for the obtuse example which demonstrates nothing.
Now, inadvertently you admit the truth;

[quote=“Cognostic, post:9, topic:2192”]
The fact that you go out, get drunk, and then get pregnant, is your problem and not mine. The fact that you forget to take your pill is your problem not mine. The fact that you are a promiscuous teen is your problem not mine.

Yes it is their problem, so butt the fuck out.

@Cognostic

When people demonstrate a complete lack of responsibility for their own lives, to the degree that they are causing significant harm to the persons and property around them, I believe we have the right to intervene.

So here, when you say “we” I assume you are referring to that same government that you referenced in the above quotes?

@Cognostic

I completely disagree with the idea that abortion is health care and that I should pay for it.

Well too fucking bad…I disagree with my paying for repeated medical procedures to remove objects from anal cavities, yet I am quite sure you would take umbrage with my opinion here…
You can take the position of “Moral Chameleon” if you wish, but I currently hold the title of “Hypocrisy Minister” and somewhat resent your intrusion into my comfort zone…BTW, I am the only one who can efficiently ride two different horses at the same time…so stfu.

Edit for obtuseness

[Tin-Man]

@skriten

I am the only one who can efficiently ride two different horses at the same time…

Uh, I beg to differ. You do have competition…

Indian stuntmen - riding two horses at once

[skriten]

@Tin-Man

Uh, I beg to differ.

WHAT??? Where did you get that? Have you and my wife been conspiring behind my back?
Clearly those have been faked…sheesh
Uh…also, I said “efficiently”, meaning able to play backgammon and drink tea while comfortably “perched” atop two stampeding steeds…apples and oranges…apples and oranges…
Edit: sorry I failed to mention that I failed to mention that it was two different horses GOING IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS.

Edit for seeds

[Cognostic]

I thought of that as I made the post. I don’t agree. I am not referencing 'Women" in general but “Women” who are demonstrably out of control or unable to control their own bodies. Women who are incapable of making a clear choice and so the courts, guardians, or appointed caretakers, the state, must step in and make that choice for them.

I have previously stated, this in no way interferes with a woman’s autonomy over her own body. It in no way gives a fetus any additional rights to live off the body of a woman without her permission.

You have pointed to nothing indicating hypocrisy. I have no idea what you are referencing when you assert that you are removing objects from your anal cavities; however, I would assert that if you put them there, no insurance company should agree to pay you to have them removed. That is a self-inflicted wound. While I would agree that you should probably receive treatment, you should be billed for that treatment. I certainly should not have to pay for it. That’s just dumb.

Where exactly do you see the hypocrisy… Nothing you have stated seems hypoctitical. You will need further explanation. I’m certainly not seeing what you think you are seeing.

[skriten]

@Cognostic

Women who are incapable of making a clear choice and so the courts, guardians, or appointed caretakers, the state, must step in and make that choice for them.

Hahaha…I wish I had been able to move the goalposts like that when I was still able to play.
The problem is that HERE you are happy to have the state step in, when you are clearly opposed to the state having ANY say so over your life. The ONLY reason you are animated over this issue is because…

[quote=“Cognostic, post:9, topic:2192”]
I completely disagree with the idea that abortion is health care and that I should pay for it. Absolutely not!

ok stingy bastard…

@Cognostic

Abortion should be monitored

Really? By whom? You? The state? How about your excesses with bananas? Shouldn’t someone be keeping an eye on you?

[quote=“Cognostic, post:32, topic:2192”]
You have pointed to nothing indicating hypocrisy.
Well, hilariously my only reference to hypocrisy was to my titular example, indicating my annoyance at your shape-shifting moral “stance” which might be encroaching on my well-deserved moniker.
You are still guilty as charged of “holding massive double standards”. (Note: not necessarily the same, but noticeably similar to hypocrisy)
Next you demonstrate projection on a scale previously only theoretical…

@Cognostic

I have no idea what you are referencing when you assert that you are removing objects from your anal cavities

Well, given your well-established reputation and the clear and persuasive evidence concerning mine own innocence and purity, it is apparent to all but the mentally compromised that the likely recipient of any and/or all “articles of intrusion” is he who attempts to distract with obfuscating, irrelevant references to non-participants.

Here you assert your reluctance to even pay for your own medical treatment(s).

@Cognostic

I certainly should not have to pay for it. That’s just dumb.

@Cognostic

Nothing you have stated seems hypoctitical.

Uh…at the risk of exposing my well hidden bigotry, this sounds like you have lived over there a bit too long.

@Cognostic

I’m certainly not seeing what you think you are seeing.

Well of course this is just metaphysically absurd. Since you could not ever possibly know what I think or what I am seeing, then you could not, of course, know to any degree of certainty what you are, in fact, “seeing”.

So, since I always avoid any logical fallacies I will acknowledge in advance that you will of course attempt to distract, project, deny and otherwise “muddy” the waters rather than provide a civilized and cogent response. After your accusations of my dishonesty and blatant attacks on my impeccable character, I can only assume that your goal is one of self-aggrandizement and utter denial of your own culpability in the destruction of the society as a whole…of course I COULD be wrong, but it would be only the second time in my entire life and that was an occasion when I thought I was mistaken.

Edit original scripture

[Old_man_shouts_at_cl]

@Cognostic

Women who are incapable of making a clear choice and so the courts, guardians, or appointed caretakers, the state, must step in and make that choice for them.

Only women then? Or where do you draw the line? Serial impregnators? Do they get monitored by Mental Health professionals and their liberties infringed?

Now you have the State administering these unfortunates what do you do? Forced sterilisation for just women? As according to your statements it is their fault they are pregnant but a serial father has no responsibility and no penalties if he ignores his responsibilities under the maintenance provisions (Assuming there are any)

I know that “libertarianism” borders the extreme right and skirts the extreme left in its flawed ideology but these posts of yours seem to be taking a very misogynist view, even though you are hiding behind the skirts of your professionalism.

[Whitefire13]

@Old_man_shouts_at_cl

Forced sterilisation for just women?

To be fair, he did advocate for forced sterilization of men too BUT it’s much more difficult to identify men that would fit his category.

IMO, there is too much with the moral judgements in this line of thinking and way tooo much “state” control in the bedroom and health.

Why pay for a smoker that got lung cancer? Or an alcoholic who’s liver needs treatment? What about a diabetic who goes off their diet and fucks around with their meds? Or the obese who can’t stop eating? Or just those that have “problems” due to their high junk food intake? AS doctors, the reason for the healthcare is set aside… THE uterus IS a ORGAN and ethically should not be denied healthcare when the woman DECIDES.

It appears the idealism of the minute and “one-offs” solution is how so much of the BAD policies get support THAT effect society as a whole.

PAY your taxes! Then society can afford the homes for foster care or adoption (not the greatest but NO Christian pro-birth advocates adopt these kids)… afford rehab centres, afford sex education and mental health services, afford free birth control - AFFORD humane solutions and choice for ALL.

Edited to add: his focus has been on women (pregnancy ) like I said is obvious - BUT an unstable man (hahahaha) can impregnate WAY more women but it’s more shhhhhh and harder to detect. Libertarians go for obvious and “simple”.

[Cognostic]

LOL - Look above - I cited men as well.

[skriten]

@Cognostic

I cited men as well.

Yes you did. And, notwithstanding my slightly rhetorical comments, I think you are genuinely concerned for the realities of unwanted pregnancies and the related difficulties. There is hope for the rehabilitation of your attitude if you can step back for a minute and consider the possibility that your close-up view might be biasing your opinion. In all seriousness, seeing the effects of bad decisions in all of their starkness can make it difficult to be objective.

Edit for slapping

[Cognostic]

@skriten

that your close-up view might be biasing your opinion.

Absolutely. I would never have concluded anything else. Not only close up but an insider’s view of a whole lot of shit that just does not get exposed to anyone in any way.

[skriten]

@Cognostic

lot of shit that just does not get exposed to anyone in any way.

I’m sure that’s true. It’s also much easier to analyze from a completely disconnected position. (Ivory tower). The frustration you must feel seeing people fall through the cracks has to take a toll. Trying to balance a person’s autonomy with efforts to help them improve their life can certainly be a real challenge.
It’s tempting to believe that the best action is no action or conversely, definitive action which might encroach on autonomy.

Edith

[Cognostic]

@skriten

encroach on autonomy.

Being completely opposed to encrochment on autonomy. I think it can be accomplished without such actions and that it is more a perception of the abhorance of the idea of "steralizing people’ and history that is the problem. (Then again. people are people and regardless of the good intentions of any system put in place for the protection of those who can not protect themselves, we can find a way to fuck it up.)