Really? Jesus is a historical figure? Prove it

Debate Room
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So when I look up Jesus. Why are historians saying this guy is a historical character when there are contradictions saying “no archaeological evidence”?

But then they go on to say “Well, he could have existed…”

But that doesn’t make sense at all. In fact that’s bullshit. If Jesus was a peasant and made no impact, then how does that explain how a fictional character came to be loved by a whole fucking religion of people?

Are we just taking turns pissing in the stew here?

There is no definitive physical or archaeological evidence of the existence of Jesus. “There’s nothing conclusive, nor would I expect there to be,” Mykytiuk says. “Peasants don’t normally leave an archaeological trail.”

“The reality is that we don’t have archaeological records for virtually anyone who lived in Jesus’s time and place,” says University of North Carolina religious studies professor Bart D. Ehrman, author of Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth. “The lack of evidence does not mean a person at the time didn’t exist. It means that she or he, like 99.99% of the rest of the world at the time, made no impact on the archaeological record.”

What the fuck? A fictional character doesn’t leave evidence but magically shits a religion into existence before he dies and all of his followers just claims he exists?

If Jesus was so fucking well known. Someone somewhere would have made sure, beyond a doubt, would have kept evidence. Where is the evidence and where the historical documentation at?

Richard the Lionheart was a king and there’s volumes of evidence on him. He died…what? A thousand years ago? His loyal subjects even took his heart and stuck it in a box.

How do scholars accept that Jesus was real? What? Are they fucking Christians trying to lie him into existence?

Sure. I find tons of Christian sources “claiming” that he was real. As usual I don’t buy into bullshit. Why don’t I buy it? Because they’re not giving fucking evidence. I need more than “I think”. Just more fucking excuses and arguing that he was real.

I’m just not seeing it. That shit rag of a Bible claims he did all these miracles and had fancy shmancy magic to make everyone’s problems go away. And OH! He came back from the dead and ran off to la la land. I’m sorry. A guy with that kind of power, theoretically. Couldn’t just vanish without a trace. Unless he magically removed ALLLLLL the evidence needed to prove his existence so he could fuck with people and say “have faith!”

A guy like him who is supposedly alive according to Christians, and is supposed to be apart of an all powerful creator deity. There would have to be evidence. It’s not like this guy kept a low profile.

Because that’s just fucking stupid.

The question of the historicity of Jesus is part of the study of the historical Jesus as undertaken in the quest for the historical Jesus and the scholarly reconstructions of the life of Jesus.[1][2][3] Virtually all scholars of antiquity accept that Jesus was a historical figure,[note 1][note 2][4][5][6][7] although a number of the events mentioned in the gospels (most notably his miracles and resurrection) are interpreted in various non-literal ways and are a subject of debate.[8][9][10] Standard historical criteria have aided in evaluating the historicity of the gospel narratives,[11][12] and only two key events are subject to “almost universal assent”, namely that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and crucified by order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.
Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia

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My $.02: I’ve always granted the historicity-obsessed religiose folks that Jesus existing wasn’t a whole sale fabrication.

These same people still have all of their work ahead of them, though, in demonstrating why I should believe Real Jesus’s teachings and doctrine.

The claim that he was the glorious Lord personified walking the earth, or that his mother never experienced the high hard one before a blastocyst implanted onto her uterine lining, or that he wasn’t located inside a cave post mortem, for instance, won’t do it.

If these same people don’t understand why things of that nature may have been sufficient for Bronze Age Middle Eastern desert people living in abysmal ignorance but not for an incredulous person in the 21st Century, I’ve commonly found that this is not my problem.

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So :thinking: wouldn’t it have been miraculous if he had left real evidence of his existence (not a tough feat for a god - sorta give ‘im an edge over the other common, ordinary humans)

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Beliefs Without Foundation For Christians

In the time I have been involved with these forums it has become tediously obvious that Christians in particular have no concept of the origins and political nature of their various sects and beliefs.

I am just going to list very few of the most egregious errors that are commonly held as “truth”

Let us start with the biggy:

The synoptic gospels are all eye witness accounts of the Jesus figure’s life written by disciples or followers at the time of the events.

Nope, the gospels by their own admission are NOT eye witness accounts. The timelines are wildly off and both Matthew and Luke correct and extensively plagiarise 'Mark” showing they are interpolated, edited copies of that earliest gospel written not earlier than 70CE.
John came much later and is dated to the early part of the second century. All the stories are changed or embellished.

There is lots of evidence that the Jesus of the Gospels existed.

There is no contemporary evidence that a Jesus figure as described in the gospels ever existed. None.

The apostolic tradition lives on in my Church

There is no contemporary evidence for the existence of any Disciples or Apostles*. The gospels don’t agree on who they were or where they went. There are no contemporary records of their deaths or even their lives.**They can’t even agree on how many there were.

My Church is founded by Jesus

Read your bible; the last thing Jesus the Torah bound Jew would do is admit gentiles to the temple. He instructed his disciples/Apostles not to approach gentiles or even Samaritans unless they first became Jews.

My Church is founded upon the rock of Peter in direct succession

There is no contemporary evidence at all that “Peter” or “Simon Peter” as described in the gospels ever existed. The mention epistles of Paul are not sufficient evidence for this character.

*Note: A James was at the upper room temple at Jerusalem, and head of the Messianic Jewish sect that developed into Christianity. Several contemporary sources mention him. The same sources call him “Elder Brother” which immediately calls into doubt the virgin story of the mythical Mary figure.

**It is fairly certain that “Paul”, author of the epistles, who is anonymous, existed. But by his own admission never met the Jesus figure and conducted all his business by way of dreams and visions some 30 years after the events described in the gospels. So if your church adheres strictly to the uttering of Paul you may be justified in using “apostolic tradition” ( just insert the word “imagined” here) even though Paul himself was charged with apostasy of the Law by the founders of the Jewish Messianic Jesus sect.

The One True Church

Ther were a myriad of “Jesus” sects in the First and Second Centuries: The Ebionites, The Marcionites, The Sethians, The Syriac Church, The Valentianians, The Ophites, Cainites, Barbeloites, Abelonians, Agapetae, Alogians, Angelici, Antitactae, Aquarii, Archontics, Ascodroutes, Borborites, Levitics, Phibionites, Stratiotici, Carpocratians, Cerinthians, Adamites, Marcellianas, Cleobians, Docetae, Elcesaites, Encratites, Apostolics(Apotactics), Severians, Marcosians, Messalians, Nicolaism, Naassenes, Perates, Priscillianism, Secundians, Seleucians, never mind the many forms of other rites that eventually coalesced under duress from the Roman Emperors into what we now know as the Latin Rite (Catholic) and Eastern traditions. The Latin Rite and Eastern churches survived by dint of extreme brutality, massacre and book burning. It is history, dear reader.

My personal position is that the divine, magical Jesus figure as described in the gospels is improbable. . That a completely human jesus figure may have existed? I use the Scots Law verdict of “not proven”.

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Wow! THAT fast :dash: MUST be proof he existed! Uh :unamused: unless you compare todays new age varieties that sprung out of the hippie movement (popularized) and of course earlier materials.

It’s not like all those sects started from scratch. They also had earlier materials - then :boom: off they went with more contemporary (eastern) and Roman pagan (and the territories) influences.

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Anybody ever heard of King Author and the Knights of the Round Table? Juuuuuust sayin’… (strolls away whistling a happy tune)…

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Exactly. Many of the early sects were loosely based on “prophetic” models which were rife in the Late BCE’s and early 1st century.

Then when Paul’s gnostic revelations spread they adopted some but not all of the bits and texts they wanted/venerated depending on the society they lived in… Nearly all those sects, after about 75CE only had one of the synoptics as their founding piece or none at all and relied on the gnostic tradition of personal revelatory experience that was written down and became the founding text for their cult.

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“No archeological evidence” is not a contradiction to the existence of an historical character. That archeological references exist is great evidence but history is often less than concrete.
There can be textual evidence, corroborated by several contemporary sources that will satisfactorily fulfil the criteria to establish a figure in history.
There can be oral history tied in with geological or phenomena observed and recorded from other nations far separated that will corroborate an event.

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Here’s a fucking irony. Uh :roll_eyes: perhaps a Special Pleading :pleading_face:

I was checking out a favourite conspiriturd site of mine and came across this gem…

The epistemological razor “What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence” is generally attributed to Christopher Hitchens, who ironically has a rather significant historyof failing to follow his own advice when it comes to claims made by western government agencies. But that’s precisely when it is most important to take Hitchens’s razor to heart: not when you’re arguing with someone about whether or not God exists, but when a very consequential claim is being made by the most powerful people on our planet.
Anything that’s been asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. It’s true of arguments, it’s true of government claims, and it’s especially true of claims coming from governments that we know for a fact make false claims all the time.

BUT NOTE …”not when you’re arguing with someone whether or not God exists”
Hahahahahahaha

Also hahahahahaha :rofl: “…we know for a fact make false claims all the time”

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No, but I have heard of King Arthur and we have a pizza place here called Round Table…

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Exactly. Why is it ONLY in the “holy books” of religion that we see these deities and prophets only demonstrate their magical powers, bark commands to their followers, commit genocide against their infidels and enemies, and make laws for humans to adhere because these deities can enforce because they are omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscience.

But when it goes outside of these books, the “word of God”, “word of Allah”, “word of the Hindu gods”, these gods are all fucking absent without a trace of evidence that they ever even existed. Even history itself shows no sign of their existence. It’s totally out of their character to remain “quiet” and “absent”. It was a well known stereotype in religion and in fiction that deities like to rule over humans. They like to do their prophecies and make plans for global destruction and make everyone miserable, rape women (Zeus, God), and make them give birth to demi gods and prophets. Religion is bullshit. It’s bullshit. All of it.

If those deities really existed. I mean really fucking existed. None of us would be Atheists. We’d all be dead or in servitude. We’d all be ruled over Juche North Korean, style government ruled by a deity giving us commands every day.

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In earlier and more benighted times, “Its god’s will and plan; we don’t know it and musn’t question it” would be the reply to such questions at best, IIRC. This is still often a style of response from the stupidly religious, in my observation.

One might also play the angle of accusing someone of not yet comprehending god’s plan for humanity because they’re a squalid atheist without a more direct line to Sky Dictator. Or because one hasn’t studied the Word quite enough to know the real answers.

There is a need for such rationalizations to continue interminably, in my experience, now that (many) organized religions and sects can no longer hold in reserve the shunning, torture, or murder of those who flirt with the heresy of questioning divine actions. Or inaction.

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I don’t care if the Vatican produce his DNA, and a signed affidavit from his mother, and counter signed by Pontius Pilate, and a couple of Centurions.

He would still be just an evolved ape, like every other human being on the planet.

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Christians live in fear. They won’t come out and say it. Their imaginary deity is a genocidal asshole whose killed over 20 million people in that shit rag of a book that claims he exists. I’m glad I broke away from this bullshit a long time ago. When I look at this shit. I see how immoral this religion actually is and the problems that it causes.

Since large numbers of people often end up as meaningless statistics, consider the rough guide below:

  • 20 million - In the global flood this figure is just over the maximum estimated human population before agriculture. Approximately the current population of Australia. It would take about a decade for this many Americans to die of natural causes. Actually, absolute terms aren’t useful for this one as it was near-enough 100% of the population - imagine 7.5 billion people being killed should God decide to pull this one again.
  • 185,000 - Assyrian soldiers killed while sleeping. This is greater than the entire multi-national coalition force at the peak of the Iraq War - so imagine losing that entire force in their sleep in one night. By comparison, the bloodiest battle (on a single day) in modern history would be the first day of the Battle of the Somme, where 20,000 BEF troops were killed. 185,000 is also the equivalent of 9/11 every single day for two months. It is slightly higher than the largest ever attendances at Talladega or Daytona motor racing tracks.[3]
  • 70,000 - Assorted Israelites, incidentally the same number of people who claimed to be Jedi in the 2001 Australian census. This is approximately the athletics capacity of Wembley Stadium, or towards the upper end of casualty estimates for the atomic bombing of Nagasaki (39,000-80,000)[4].
  • 50,070 - Assuming the higher figure, this is not far off the capacity of Yankee Stadium. Sports stadiums are useful comparisons because they’re areas where we have photographsWikipedia of that many people in close proximity and you can see how many it represents.
  • 24,000 - Slightly higher than the capacity of Madison Square Garden for pro wrestling.

Of course, many of these numbers do pale next to what humans do to each other, and what the planet itself has thrown at us, but it is really the motives (or lack of) that should be truly shocking. When one takes into consideration all killing committed for God and in his name (up until the present 2022), the tally increase would be much, much higher. He gives free will, but apparently, it is just a trap.

But, remember… God loves you!

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Exactly. As I’ve said before, even IF (Big, big “IF”) the god of the bible were somehow proven to be real, I still would not worship it. Granted, I would no longer be an atheist, but nor would I be a follower of such a god. I have literally arrested criminals who have better morals/ethics than the god of the bible. Here’s the funny (and ironic) part, though. IF that god is real right now, then it ALREADY KNOWS what I think and WHY I think the way I do. It KNOWS I am sitting here typing this right now. And it could EASILY do whatever is necessary to change my mind. Yet… here we are. Therefore, I can only conclude that I am part of this god’s plan just as I am because this is how it “created” me to be. And that also means it is perfectly okay with sending me to its hell to be tortured for not worshipping it. Bow down to something like THAT?.. (chuckle)… Fuck no.

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Pizza… A round food item, cut into triangle pieces, and delivered in a square box. Geometry lessons while you eat.

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Yes. Now slowly put your finger in the pie and feel it’s cheesy goodness. :pizza:

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Cheeses Christ………

Or crust, Cheeses Crust!

Cheeses fuckin’Crust

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OWWWWW!!! OW-OW-OW!.. (throwing cold water on crotch)… Holy shit, that cheese is HOT!.. How about a little warning next time, huh? OWWWWW!.. (reading post again)… Oh, damn… You said FINGER. I have GOT to get my glasses prescription updated… (furiously fanning crotch area)… Somebody else can have that last piece if you want it.

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I said Cheeses fuckin’Crust NOT

Fuck in cheese’s crust

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