All you have to do is read historical documents on the issue. I have, which is how I know it.
Ok. Will do. You’ve been placed in a two week time out.
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For she’s a jolly good fellow… No! Wait a minute. That doesn’t work. Does it?
Nice try, if you had such knowledge you could share it, all you have done yet again, is prop up a bare claim with another bare claim, and in your previous condescending fashion.
At this point it has become clear you’re here to preach your beliefs at people, and without ever honestly debating them, or answering questions with any integrity, but if you really imagine you can bluff like this in here, and not have your sweeping assertions rejected, then you’re very wrong.
While he’s on the naughty step he can look up the word epistemology. Only claiming to know there is no deity without demonstrating any objective evidence to support that claim, is as fundamentally irrational as claiming a deity exists in the same fashion, @FILECABINET’s spiel is no different than that of the religious apologists we see peddling their superstitious wares on here. You haven’t taken a different position, you’d taken the same position with a different conclusion.
While I agree that there are two different versions, I am not sure which is earlier or more valid. The whole Sinai/Horeb thing is a mess. E 34 starts with god saying he will write the commands, then later, after stating the commands, he tells Moses to write them, which is where some apologists will say those commands were written by man. However, it is also not clear what any later writer considers Torah. Jeremiah says the Law was not given to those coming out of Egypt. Ezekiel says evil commands are given. Jeremiah says the scribes are lying. In answer to Jeremiah’s covenant in the heart, Zechariah seems to have a simplified two command Torah. Zechariah also crowns Jesus Jehozadak as the Christ. Later Ezra has to split Jesus’s sons from their intermarried families, Nehemiah has to run to later descendants of Jesus Jehozadak out of town as reestablish the Sabbath and the proper tithe. It seems that Jesus Jehozadak;s descendants did not think in terms of laws of exclusivity or identity. Jesus of NAzareth only names 5 laws, also leaving out the commandments of Jewish identity.
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The problem with the whole Moses story is that there is significantly less evidence to believe any of it than there is for the Jesus bullshit. It seemed to be a story that was created, from what I have read, during the exodus from Babylonian captivity. Their god and their 10 commandments mirror Babylonian culture of the time. 597 BCE, around 7,000 individuals were deported to Mesopotamia. Further deportations followed the destruction of Jerusalem and Solomon’s Temple in 587 BCE.[1]
The Bible recounts how after the fall of the Neo-Babylonian Empire to the Achaemenid Empire at the Battle of Opis in 539 BCE, exiled Judeans were permitted by the Persians to return to Judah.[5][6]
Enter the Copenhagen school of thought. Instead of working from the earliest date possible forward, they seem to have worked from the latest possible date backward. Russell Gmirken is one of the best writers on the subject. He destroys a date of around 311 BCE as forgery and so settles on about 270 BCE. I think that is from his book Berrossus and Genesis, though it might be in Plato and the creation of the Hebrew bible, where he shows elements of Plato’s works in the Torah.
Either time period, 587 BCE or 270 BCE. is dependent on a foreign library full of legal texts from various cultures. So there is parity there.
The literary advantage of the 270 time period is that writers like Berossus had summarized Babylonian stories on creation, thus explaining why for example, the flood story contains elements from various flood stories from various time periods and various locations.
Beyond that, the major support for writing the Torah just after Babylonian captivity is the idea of a mandate from Darius I for all cultures to write a legal text of their own. This has been debunked. The only evidence was an attempt to collect specifically Egyptian laws.
Linguistic evidence is sparse and relies on two factors. First the very sparse archeological finds with writing, and second, conjectures where the language evolved over time. These methods date some pieces of the Torah into a distant past, despite evidence in the Dead Sea Scrolls of attempts to imitate ancient techniques to antiquate their writings.
If 270 is the latest the Torah could have been written, then 450-404 seems to be the earliest time period, because of the Elaphantine papyri. A military encampment at the southern edge of Egypt wrote letters to Jerusalem’s temple. 1) They asked for funds to rebuild their temple, which would have been against the “one temple” rule of Deuteronomy. 2) they worshipped 5 gods in that temple. 3) there was found a Passover paper that outlined a different set of instructions for that celebration and, like the rest of the the papers found there, made no mention of Moses, the Exodus, or anything in any part of the Bible.
So somewhere between 450 (Elaphantine)-270?
Gmirken proposes 270 on the basis of the contents of the letter of Aristeas which describes the miraculous translation of the Torah into Greek. Gmirken does not believe that 72 scribes went into 72 rooms and individually translated 72 exact copies as Aristeas claims. He reimagines a core truth to the Letter by asserting that 72 scribes were invited by Ptolemy Philadelphius to Alexandria to write out their law code for the famous library there.
If I may be so bold, there are arrows that align to point to a later date. First, Gmirken notes that the letter of Aristeas is written by the Judean librarian in the Alexandrian Library, Aristobulous, in about 150 BCE. Second, the first mention of all the major storylines in the Bible, seemingly intentionally, is the Wisdom of Sirach, which is often dated to 180 BCE, just before the Maccabean war. However it has a forward and an epilogue dated to the grandson of this (Jesus son of) Sirach, about 125 BCE who translated it into Hebrew. Finally, the reference of a “Jewish Homer” named Sosates found by Shaye JD Cohen, dated to about 125 BCE as well. That these three items, clouded by an absence of evidence of their actual doings, still point to this one time period, suggest to me that the Torah was pulled together at this very late date.
(Beyond this, Judea actually did not evict the Greek garrison from Jerusalem until 142 BCE, making it independent. It achieved its greatest extent, of course, under a guy named Alexander who ruled from 103-76 BCE. Seeing how history is usually written by the victors, this time period from 142 to 76 BCE seems likely to me.)
The only problem then is the DSS, which dates some manuscripts as early as 200 BCE. However, the carbon dating for the DSS is a range, and often the earliest possible date is given as the date for any text found there. The latest possible date seems to be 70 CE, when the jars containing the manuscripts date to as people were attempting to hide their library from the onslaught of the Roman armies.
Sorry to ramble. Just woke up. Hope you are having a great day!!
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If you want a deity to exist then create one. That’s what countless other people have done through the ages. If you don’t want a deity then spend your time on something else, like cutting the grass or doing housework or going for a walk.
As for myself, I don’t believe in any deity and would never voluntarily worship one even if it was real and walked amongst us.
I discuss the biblical fairytale because that is what most people yak about here. It is a beautifully written piece of literature and all of the stories in the Old and New Testaments illustrate one or more of the real Ten Commandments, (Exodus 34:11-26) which are highly ethnocentric… People like the fake ones in Exodus chapter 20 and Deuteronomy chapter 5 because they are not racist like the real ones are. If you don’t know that then you don’t know your ass from a hole in the ground and will never understand the stories. The purpose of the stories is to act as a quiz to see if the listener, or reader, can identify which of the real Ten Commandments the stories are about. That’s why the stories themselves don’t have to make sense.
Sirach chapters 44-51 Sirach 44-51 CEB - Hymn to the ancestors - Now allow us to - Bible Gateway illustrates how even you could write the Bible. You just create a list of characters and give them certain attributes and dialogue and focus their actions on the key points that you want to make.
As for Christians, they are simply nothing more than a branch of Judaism. Their basic beliefs are the same as the Pharisees. They are essentially Jews by religion (not ethnically) because they believe in the Jewish deity and in the Jewish high priest Jesus. Jewish religious movements - Wikipedia
Since all of the atheists have already stated that there is no God, then there’s no real purpose for the forum unless you are willing to discuss the various religious fairytales in depth. The problem is that some snowflakes get their feelings hurt when someone expresses new ideas that don’t agree with theirs.
I identify as atheist and I’ve never “stated that there is no god”…wherever did you come up with that?
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No.
There is a general expectation around here that arguments are backed up with reasoning and/or sources. When that does not happen, this is pointed out, and discussion follows. This audience will point out fallacies and other faulty reasoning.
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Straw man fallacy, I have never claimed to want a deity to exist or not exist.
You also failed to address your claim to know something, yet again? Until you learn to understand that your unevidenced subjective claim is no different to those we commonly see from theists, your attempts at deflection will remain dishonest. FYI one does not need to know a claim is untrue in order to remain dubious, indeed I would assert that not knowing is a sound reason to withhold belief, but not a sound reason to make an unevidenced contrary claim, as you keep doing.
This is a pubic debate forum, and I will post as and when I am minded to, get over it.
That’s not true, people discuss a wide range of topics here, and you’re not just discussing the bible either, you have made a claim to “know that no deity exists”, and you have failed not just to present any object evidence for this claim, not a surprise as it appears to be unfalsifiable, but you don’t seem to understand that it is unfalsifiable or the epistemological consequences, you might learn something if you stopped being so closed minded.
That seems like a no true scotsman fallacy to me.
That’s a lie, not one of the regular posting atheists here have made this claim, I certainly have not, again it is unfalsifiable, and again I understand the epistemological consequences, the fact that you do not is why you keep repeating the claim, and are now falsely equating the atheism of others with it, a false equivalence fallacy by the way.
Countless such discussions litter the threads here, this is also not relevant to your inability to understand the epistemological difference between not believing a claim, and making a contrary claim, it’s an error in reasoning we see theists and religious apologists make constantly. The fact your arguments again here are relentlessly irrational should also give you pause, if you have any interest in pursuing the truth, rather than preaching a belief you hold in a sweeping closed minded fashion.
No, that’s another straw man fallacy, and an ad hominem fallacy to boot, doubly ironic as well, since it is you who has asserted an idea that “no deities exist”, and you that has become annoyed when other atheists have challenged you to properly evidence that idea, as they recognise it is unfalsifiable and thus it is unlikely you can do so, though unlike you I am keeping an open mind. I can only infer you were expecting an atheist debate forum to be some sort of echo chamber for your unevidenced belief, and not only have you failed to understand the implications of that belief being unfalsifiable, you are stridently repeating it as if repetition alone will make it less irrational or closed minded.
Now one more time then.
- Do know what an unfalsifiable idea is?
- Do you understand that your claim “no deities exist” is an absolute and therefore an unfalsifiable idea?
- Do you then understand why this subjective belief you hold cannot be supported by sufficient objective evidence?
- Do you understand that atheism is simply the lack or absence of belief in any deity or deities, and is not in and of itself a belief of any kind?
Are you prepared to debate your claim, by honestly answering those questions, or do you just want to pick up where you left off, and preach your unevidenced belief just as so many theists do? As i said in the post you have just responded to, and of course that you ingored entirely to preach again…
It’s hard not to notice you ignored my post entirely, and simply responded in the same strident and closed minded fashion you were using before you were given a mandatory time out, for failing to engage in honest debate. Can you, and are you willing to, learn anything? That’s the question now…or are you incapable or unwilling to go beyond your facile strident and irrational preaching? I’m cool either way, but do you care whether what you believe is true? So far your posts suggest that like theists you are more emotionally invested in the belief, than whether that belief can be properly supported by objective evidence or rational argument, indeed you don’t seem to understand how irrational your arguments are, despite it being explained.
Which deity are you claiming that exists?
Who are you talking to? I have only seen atheists respond to your claim, and so have not seen anyone claim a deity exists.
You seem to have ignored my questions again.
- Do you know what an unfalsifiable idea is?
- Do you understand that your claim to “know that no deities exist” is an absolute and therefore an unfalsifiable idea?
- Do you then understand why this subjective belief you asserted, is not knowledge unless you can demonstrated it?
- Do you understand that atheism is simply the lack or absence of belief in any deity or deities, and is not in and of itself a belief of any kind?
K’innel… 
…
Ok here are the odds:
Evens - he waited his two weeks on the naughty step, petulantly posted his beliefs one more time before leaving forever, because he still can’t and won’t grasp how strident and closed minded they are.
2 - 1 he’s going to come back periodically, and ignore any and all objections to his beliefs, and just keep preaching them, while misrepresenting those objections with more straw men fallacies.
100 - 1 he’s mulling the new responses over objectively, and will post only when he’s fully understood their implications for his unfalsifiable absolute claim…
I’m open to taking side bets… 
Since I’m on public record here not only as never making this assertion, but discussing relevant options at length, you might want to reconsider this assertion.
Also, I’ve exerted diligent effort bringing peer reviewed scientific papers to the table here for a multiplicity of reasons.
But I’m used to seeing various individuals who haven’t exerted due diligence posting crass assertions about this forum and its membership.
Again, wrong. I and others here have exerted diligent effort explaining why bad ideas are wrong. Perhaps if you exert a bare minimum of diligent effort, you’ll find some of the numerous examples of this.
Usually, it’s the mythology fanboys that launch into histrionics here, along with outright lying.
Since I’m currently posting on my tablet, and my forum post backups are all on my laptop, you’ll have to be patient if you want a detailed exposition on the matter.
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Meanwhile, back on topic, among the absurdities and iniquities that I’ve taken note of, we have:
[1] Hilarity:
Genesis 1, with its ridiculous cosmogony and origin of life story, destroyed wholesale by even basic scientific understanding;
The manifest clash of the above with Genesis 2;
Genesis 30: 37-39, which effectively asserts that genetics is purportedly controlled by coloured sticks;
The various instances of lunacy in Leviticus 11, such as classifying bats as birds, and the risible failure to count correctly the number of legs that an insect possesses.
[2] Iniquity:
The whole diseased “global flood” fairy tale (which also contains its fair share of corollary hilarity, but ultimately is disturbing for being a de facto apologia for mass murder;
The numerous instances where the mythology in question presents gleeful assertions about the pursuit of brutal, genocidal Lebensraum wars, either directly ordered by the nasty little cartoon magic man, or given silent assent thereby. Of those, Numbers 31:18 stands out as being particularly revolting. I would have chosen that latter cited passage as the most disturbing until recently, but Netanyahu citing 1 Samuel 15:1-3 as “justification” for genocide in Gaza clearly eclipses that.
“The problem with the whole Moses story” to me, is that the guy never sets foot in Israel!
I believe there are no incompatibilities in the bible. Everyone talks about events from their own perspective. If me and you witnessed the same event from different positions and with different knowledge. We would say different things about the same event.
Then you would be obviously WRONG. Just to begin, there is no book called the Bible. The Bible is an anthology of books, written, collected, and rewritten over thousands of years by hundreds of different authors. The selected books were canonized from among hundreds of books in use at the time. The idea that all these books are compatible is utterly and completely ludicrous.
The fact that Christians make up stories to explain away the inconsistencies is well documented. The fact that you can not see the discrepancies/inconsistencies is a demonstration of your ignorance and not of biblical inerrancy,
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