Has anyone ever thought of what kind of proof it would take to assert God’s existence? Its impossible. If there is a God who is invisible to perception then how can one be able to point out it’s existence?
You cant, and also wouldn’t that be the point (in there being a God)? God being mysterious, and only seeking the good hearts of man to find him. It all seems to make sense to me. IMO this renders the concept of faith as rational.
Then the god is irrelevant to humanity and can be ignored.
My heart pumps blood does yours have a different function?
Faith by its very definition can lead to irrational conclusions. I suggest you read you first sentences I quoted to see what I mean.
“Then the god is irrelevant to humanity and can be ignored”
Invisible to perception does not = non-functional or non-existent. It also implies that it’s choosing to be invisible, since by definition God would be all-knowing and all-powerful. God could very well show up and throw you in the pit when you die. Who knows?
“My heart pumps blood does yours have a different function?”
A rather soulless and irrelevant response. I have no other comment on that rubbish.
“Faith by its very definition can lead to irrational conclusions”
The word ‘can’ here being the most important. Yes it can, but skepticism can also lead one to be wrong about a proposition, ‘CANT’ it?
Then how do you know? If is is invisible to perception then it, by definition cannot interact with the physical world, or, it will leave traces for examination. In which case it is “Not invisible to perception” Sort your head out.
What? your heart is the same as mine? Then is has the function of a pump. If you can’t write clearly don’t write at all .
Which doesn’t validate your “faith” position at all.
You really are having problems with basic definitions.
It may as well do. ‘Invisible to perception’ = not able to be perceived, not seen, heard felt, incapable of communicating with… or do you need to further qualify your concept of a mysterious ‘God’?
If he is mysteriously invisible to perception, how the hell do you know it is seeking hearts of anyone? I think you’re making this up which leads me to confirm my long held conviction that faith remains irrational.
“If is is invisible to perception then it, by definition cannot interact with the physical world”
Only if we ignore the fact that we only perceive what our brain allows us to. But sure, I’ll go with it. So according to you, the physical world is the only thing that exists. Not surprising. So once your body decays and dies, you think nothing will come out of it? Not even energy?
And obviously I meant heart as metaphorical. I know you know that, troll. Unless atheists really don’t have souls, and don’t understand what heart means when we are talking about the good in man.
No point in getting in a tizz with me. You wrote that your god couldnt be perceived…therefore it doesn’t matter. You dont even know if it exists if it cant be perceived.
Or are you telling me you have a special brain that CAN perceive this thing?
Once anyone’s body decays (hopefully after death, but not always) than of course it remains in the system as its constituents. i.e chemicals. What is wrong with you? Don’t introduce straw men.
You cant write clearly and I am a troll?
You never said anything about “good in a man” you said good on the hearts of man. Somewhat different. Last time I dissected a heart I only found blood an tissue…where exactly is the “good” kept?
Are you saying “souls” exist? Do you have any evidence for this assertion?
“You dont even know if it exists if it cant be perceived.”
That’s the beauty of God. You can’t know it exists, therefore you use faith.
Atheists like to make God sound irrational.
No, God isn’t a man in the sky, or a personality external to the universe. It’s consciousness. What if I told you it’s possible that the universe/reality itself is conscious? It’s not really a far-fetched argument, since technically consciousness IS energy as far as we know.
Wouldn’t that be an invisible to perception God which CAN exist?
“Are you saying “souls” exist? Do you have any evidence for this assertion?”
Depends on you define “soul”. I define it by energy.
That you think of your brain as a malignant or an incompetent third party that wilfully limits your full perception of reality is a little disturbing to hear.
Are you going to suggest that after we die, and are stone-cold-three-days-dead, we can at least expect some sense of self-awareness/consciousness in some form of detached self-sustaining energy?
Not surprising I suppose for someone who thinks we can have meaningful relationships with intangible imperceivable supernatural entities and who professes enough perception about them, despite the lack of connection, to say they seek out good natured-mortal souls…No, I have no valid reason to think souls exist, even as disembodied balls of energy. I entertain no such fantasies to comfort me from the hard realities of the natural world. Reality sucks, but better to embrace it than delude yourself with unsubstantiated fairy tales.
I don’t need to get all spiritually metaphorical discussing the more attractive attributes of humankind. It’s real but sadly underrated because a lot of misguided people severely underestimate and prefer to denigrate the potential value of humanity which they would rather project outside themselves into external imagings…like uncooperative brains that wilfully limit perception of reality.
“No, I have no valid reason to think souls exist, even as disembodied balls of energy. I entertain no such fantasies to comfort me from the hard realities of the natural world. Reality sucks, but better to embrace it than delude yourself with unsubstantiated fairy tales”
That’s sad. Not even souls exist huh? Don’t you think that’s kind of soulless to think? Souls aren’t anything more than just you (your consciousness). Seems like atheists dismiss the validity of anything that can’t be empirically proven to be true. This leaves a lot of truth left out because, unbeknownst to you, there’s more than this physical ride in our physical cars we call bodies. Life is love. Embrace it
I’m of the opinion that no one has one.
I couldn’t agree more. Maybe you could call the Christian apologists and help explain it to them.
“Souls aren’t anything more than just you (your consciousness).”
I quite agree, so why is it you don’t just call it ‘consciousness’? I am proud and loud about possessing a consciousness (see below for more).
You’d be well aware of the religious connotations attached to the word ‘soul’ and the concept of its “innateness”, the superstition that the soul is something everyone is born with and the excuse used to punish those who do not beleive in the god their soul proves exists…how is this rational? I tend to use language maintaining precise meaning, it helps in communicating with others.
So we aren’t talking about any ‘God’ here are we? because as you stated we cant actually know it exists so we need to apply faith. But the question is how do we apply our faith in something intangible and unperceivable? Don’t we need a revelation of some sort? Did you get a revelation from this God or did someone just tell you about it? And if you get this revelation, this notice from God, doesnt that sort of experience make faith superfluous?
Atheists do not need to make ‘God’ sound irrational, theists do a splendid job of that themselves.
You would not be the first person to try and persuade me that the universe has a disembodied consciousness and it would not be the first time I questioned someone else’s rationality.
I will agree consciousness can be measured in as electrical impulses using various medical devices and machines but only when those impulses are coursing through neural networks within nervous systems. Disembodied conscious energy is the saddest attempt of theism to claim scientific authority after centuries of suppressing it.
And as we have discussed “faith” is not a reliable indicator of truth. You can have faith in Eric the Unicorn Who Farts Rainbows. Every theist (or any of the christian death cults) has "faith in their unique version of the jesus figure. So which is true?
Then call it consciousness. Duh.
What if I told you it wasn’t? YOU DON"T KNOW THAT, you are making things up.
The for fucks call it energy! We all have energy, without it we would be dead. Oh wait…you are pleading for it to be a :
Then you need to have evidence. And I bet a pound to a secondhand fart you aint got it.
“That’s sad. Not even souls exist huh?”
What is sad? ‘Souls’ are a purely religious invention, by definition, supposedly innate and questionably immortal.
I declare grateful possession of a truly prized mortal consciousness and while it is confined to the neural pathways of my nervous system, encased in my thick bony cranium, I experience the full heights and depths and extremities of human love, experience and imagination and the entire universe.
I embrace this life far more tenaciously and lovingly than you might imagine because there is no other when it passes. It isn’t death I fear, just the manner of my passing.
By all means I welcome you to your hopes of immortality, but I prefer to fully engage in this reality without dissipating concerns about any unsubstantiated after-life.
A revelation? There’s plenty reason to believe in God and your own universal identity. Look around you, life is a fucking miracle dude. Everyone is different, possessing their own unique personality living their small day to day lives, possessing their own small righteous opinions. Yet God is still irrational? Something higher than all of that shit, is irrational? People tout that evolution disproves intelligent design, but doesn’t that just support it?
If you reject the idea of anything higher than yourself then you’re rejecting your potential of possessing your own universal identity and importance in this universe.
Philosophy by Cheech and Chong!
But seriously, what do you mean by higher?
Oh lord, the farce is strong in this one.
Ummm and exactly how IMPORTANT are you in these vast universe? You are appearing to be more and more of a muppet every time you post.
Definition of important
1 : marked by or indicative of significant worth or consequence : valuable in content or relationship
2 : giving evidence of a feeling of self-importance
You should really learn to english before you post much more.
What I see around me I identify as the natural universe. I certainly don’t need you as some magical mystery tour guide to tell me just how awesome it is and I get my information first hand or from more reliable sources than you.
You opened this thread about an invisible god whose existence was impossible to assert. How is that in any way rational? I said faith in God is irrational, you keep reinforcing the idea for me.
Intelligent design? Why don’t you call it what it really is? Creationism. And no, neither the theory of evolution nor the scientific method support creationism because creationism presupposes the existence of a supernatural god. Science and the scientific method does not recognise the supernatural.
Your last sentence is just gibberish. I have no problems with my sense of self, self worth, identity or importance. I define myself and my life by the people I share it with and I have a higher regard for myself than to rely on external imaginary authorities for personal validation and definition. And so should you.
Hmm how is the “farce strong”? Please explain.
My importance is irrelevant. Actually, I was pointing out that OUR importance is very small. Getting to the point there could be something higher than ourselves.
But for an old man, you’re quite annoying, and also like to ignore my points and divert into your little bullshit attempts to belittle my argument. I’m hardly interested in responding to your atheistic quibble anymore. So just shut up