Problem I am always grappling with

What kind of “rock” concerts are you talking about? I’ve been going to shows for over 40 years, and the worst thing I’ve ever witnessed was people so drunk/stoned that I wondered how on earth are they going to get home after the show?
If total strangers end up hooking up after the show, more power to them. I’ve never seen or even heard of people having sex while the show was going on.
Smoking is illegal at concerts, and booze has been legal for decades now and is available basically at any public gathering(football, baseball, basket ball, etc).
What makes a metal show any more dangerous than any other event?

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What are Muslims addicted to? “RELIGION.” The need to conform or be banished if not worse. Apostates are to be killed. The subjugation of women. Black and white thinking. A follow the leader mentality that robs people of their ability to think critically.


Not whilst the show is going on :rofl: although that would be pretty cool. I was just making the point that to muslims, they would see things like rock music being a gateway into alcohol, smoking, drugs, fornication etc. Which it doesnt have to be, but can be, just like many other things they refrain from being involved with. They live a very controlled life, its a life that by the book, keeps them away from things that could potentially threaten education, family unit etc. On one hand we can make some poor judgement in life because of alcohol and things like that, whereas they dont tend to have that. But as others have rightly pointed out to me, and reaffirmed my own beliefs, they live a very boring, controlled, and often brutal life. So its irrelevent really, there isnt one best way to live

The family unit is nothing like a Western Family. Marriages are still arranged. Incest is rampant. It is a big problem in the Islamic World because it’s considered unusual if not offensive to marry someone outside of one’s family or tribe. The pressure to marry a family member can be intense. Reliable research suggests consanguineous marriage rates in many Arab nations are as high as 50 percent. It is also estimated that nearly 70% of the Muslims in Pakistan are inbred.
“Saudi Arabia is a living genetics laboratory,” Dr. Stephen R. Schroeder, executive director of the Prince Salman Center for Disability Research, told the Times. “Here you can study 10 families to study genetic disorders, w

Effects of Centuries of Extreme Inbreeding Among Muslims: Low IQ, Violence and Terrorism

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In a word, power, they’re addicted to power, and wielding it over others.


Not always, this claim is often misused in an entirely subjective way. Also just because something increases risk of certain illnesses or conditions, does not mean consuming or using it will be objectively injurious to your health, yet they are sometimes labelled as bad for you in a sweeping facile manner.

Smoking is a pretty good example, only a minority of smokers develop cancer as a result, but it is a vastly higher percentage than among non-smokers. However in order to discourage smoking they need something a bit more punchy than smoking may increase your risk of developing certain cancers.

That’s before we deal with religion’s woo woo claims, like masturbating is bad for you, gay sex is bad for you, lascivious thoughts are bad for you, gambling is bad for you, etc. Can’t say I have or am ever likely to try gay sex, but I can attest there is no evidence any of the others have injured me in any way. Not yet anyway.

It is inaccurate, smoking may increase your risk of developing certain cancers and conditions, but the even though the risk increases substantially, the number of smokers who develop such conditions or cancers is still a minority. Depending on how much you smoke you may develop high blood pressure, but then salt and fat in your diet, or a lack of exercise are also likely to do this.

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“VIENNA, 21 June (UN Information Service) - A survey on Drug Use in Afghanistan, issued today by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), shows that around one million Afghans (age 15-64) suffer from drug addiction. At eight per cent of the population, this rate is twice the global average.”


Now while I accept this doesn’t deal with other factors, even prima facie this suggests their claim is wildly inaccurate. and I encourage you to read the whole article, and delve beyond the facile hubris of religious claims everytime, indeed not just religious claims either. Theocracies limit freedoms, this doesn’t necessarily reduce all risky behaviours, and of course taking away people’s freedoms can itself be pernicious in many ways.

FYI and worthy of note, even were these hubristic claims true, they would not themselves represent any objective evidence for the exitance of any deity or anything supernatural; and totalitarian regimes are not always theistic, so it follows since the same freedoms could be removed in a secular regime, that religion is irrelevant to the claimed efficacy of those actions.

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What if you were to look at it from a strictly medical viewpoint, does it do anything other than injurious things? I suppose you could argue that it relieves stress which may prolongue life in one sense/prevent suicide perhaps? But what about the number of deaths caused by smoking? Preventable in terms of cause by not smoking, maybe islam would prevent those particular deaths. But again its, would I rather smoke, die younger, and have fun than live a boring life worshiping something never proven, I think I would

Thanks I’ll take a look at that, its interesting because a muslim was once saying to me how women covering up helps to prevent rape, and talking of the rapes that occur in the western world. Then I looked up rape statistics for his native country, which was also afghanistan, and it was one of the highest on the planet, far higher than western countries


I was, the rate of lung cancer among smokers increases drastically but is still a minority, viewing stats in isolation often misleading, as are sweeping generalisations. Smoking clearly doesn’t harm everyone who smokes, not even half in fact, and of course the amount and duration are also factors.

What about them? Care to even try and calculate how many deaths have been directly or indirectly caused by religion? I’m guessing it dwarfs smoking, so by that rationale religion is more harmful than smoking, so you see how it is easy to create sweeping and facile generalisations, but rather pointless.

No it wouldn’t, any secular regime could ban smoking, thus Islam and even religion and theism are utterly irrelevant to the claim.

Well this isn’t strictly the point I am making, but yes I’d agree that freedom has more appeal than living my life in some dystopian theocracy, or in any totalitarian regime.

If North Korea banned smoking drinking and gambling, would that justify claiming communist dictatorships can prevent deaths from those behaviours?

No behaviour by a women encourages rape, this is the worst kind of victim blaming, and reflects a very pernicious and misogynistic attitude in my opinion. You can test this easily, and ask him if he thinks rape is in any justified or remotely mitigated by the way a woman dresses? If I came across a women who was naked the reaction is my choice and I alone am culpable for it.

I’m not surprised, and I’d bet my house that given the dearth of rights women have under regimes like the Taliban, that there are far more rapes that go unreported, like spousal rape and incest for example. What prevents rape is educating men to treat women as autonomous equals, and laws that give men and women the same rights.

If a man forcibly sodomised you, and someone told you it was partly your fault for not wearing a covering to hide your body, would you find that argument compelling?


Oh I absolutely detest victim blaming, its the absolute lowest of the low. Its misogynistic pig behaviour in my opinion

Every time you put what I say into perspective its like you are washing out all the absolute clogged up drivel that has been put inside my head.

You sir, are an athiestsend (godsend wouldnt work here)

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Did you tell him that? Assuming it was safe to do so, it would be the most appropriate response.

Well lets not get carried away, anyone can subject claims and beliefs to critical scrutiny, indeed if I can do it with a middling intellect and a mediocre formal education, then certainly anyone can, it is simply a subjective choice one would make, if one cares to only believe as many true claims as possible, then setting a higher standard for belief is clearly an objective way to achieve that.

This is a little worrying, I think you should focus on why you think my rationale is correct, and try and practice subjecting all claims and beliefs to such a rationale, rather than simply exchange mine for the Muslims you had listened to. You must learn to be sceptical of claims, and to withhold belief until they are sufficiently supported by objective evidence. Who is making the claims should never be the deciding factor, and intelligent people can present claims that are dubious, but in a very convincing way if we are not sceptical.

Scepticism is a useful starting point, and all beliefs should be shaped by facts and evidence, not the other way around. I will only add to be very wary of statistics, as these are very easy to distort and misrepresent, and be particularly wary of sweeping generalisations, as they tend to be facile in nature.

Find and carefully examine a list of known common logical fallacies, HERE is a link. Scrutinise all claims, including your own, relentlessly for these. Never dismiss a claim by someone else you have used one, go back and critically examine what you have said to be sure you haven’t made such an error in reasoning. If you find them in the arguments of others, then those arguments are irrational by definition, and weakly or poorly reasoned. If anyone uses them relentlessly even after they are pointed out, that person doesn’t care that their beliefs are irrational.

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Thanks for your help

Im not sure forums are for me, I find this style of communicating a little strange and maybe unintentionally patronising, definately quite offputting.

No it isnt worrying, I simply thanked you for helping me to sooth this doctrine fed to me about smoking etc and for shedding a new perspective on it thus clearing out some of the doubts I had regarding my athiesm. Its not that im easily swayed I just lack confidence, I think pretty much everything everyone has said but lack the confidence in my own opinion.

You will find I dont take anything as truth or fact or knowledge unless it is demonstratable, repeatable, scientifically. Everything else in life is just philosophical babble gabble

Talking on a human level seems to be under scrutiny at every turn here which I actually find quite worrying myself. This isnt court, it is just an internet forum, nothing more than a series of webpages for people to come and talk about not much all day. This is to the forum in general

Thanks again for your time and everyone else, definately not for me, but I took some positive out of it for which I am grateful

Its not easy having acute anxiety disorder and working with a boss who is overpowering and wants to constantly convince you that your way of life is wrong. Yes I could complain but life isnt that simple in a capitalist no real employment rights world, nor is finding another job that suits.

Well there was no intent to be patronising, just cautionary.

I meant worrying to me of course, and while I appreciate the thanks, there is nothing in my posts you couldn’t establish yourself, which is my point.

This is a good thing, and certainly preferable to the kind of hubris in some of the religious claims your friends offered.

That’s good, but none of the claims you asserted you were pondering satisfied those criteria? Even claims you made yourself, like smoking is bad for you, when closely and critically examined is seen to be at best facile and misleading.

Why so? I think actively challenging ideas and beliefs is demonstrably setting a higher standard for belief. I don’t see the harm there to be honest?

We know this already, you may be taking things personally when there is no need. People are generally respected, but ideas and beliefs are judged on merit, as they should be.

Well you’re welcome, and if you ever change your mind you know where the forum is.

I can imagine, which country is this? My first advice is to ensure you are safe, don’t say or do anything that might jeopardise your safety, but if it’s safe I’d tell him you find his proselyting unacceptable, and if he persist report his behaviour to HR department if you have one. Is there a union you can seek help from?

I’m not sure which country you’re talking about, but in the US or UK you certainly have rights he is violating.

Thankyou so much, I am from England, I think because of my mental health issues I do take things personally, react, then see sense afterwards, its not easy, anxiety can effect a lot including self esteem.

This is why forums are not good for me, I felt the need to explore some athiest views as I cannot talk directly to people such as aronra, matt dillahunty etc. I may look for an athiest group to join so I can talk to them in person

But I think I would struggle to survive on here as I am a little sensitive and context is always a problem when communicating in text.

I respect you for that message and if I feel the need I will certainly head here and your way if I find myself struggling.

Take care and thanks again

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you realise that there is a private message facility here? You can discuss one on one if that is easier for you?


Just try not take it personally, one cal always take a break if it is too much. If you work in the UK then there are laws to protect you in the work place, you could seek help and advice informally from HR department , or join a union. No one in the uk can be prevented from joining a union, by law. Nor my anyone in the UK receive a detriment because they are or are not in a union, so were any employer to take any action that could be viewed as such, you would have legal recourse against them, and the union would pursue it on your behalf.

You too, hope things work out.

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I did not, thankyou for the information

How about that Coronavirus, right? Like … it was here … and then now, it’s gone? What’s up with that too? That’s what I’m struggling with right now :cry:

Why would you think it is gone? I caught the virus last year, it went right through the plant I worked at, some people getting sick others without noticing. Around 90% of cases are asymptomatic.

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