Problem I am always grappling with

I no longer believe that.

Why would I try to change it? I have no intention of changing your words, I respect your words. Is there a peer reviewed scientific study that suggests smoking isnt necessarily harmful to health? I am genuinely interested as it happens

How can I try to make clear the things I am grappling with in my head without provoking them? Its not exactly easy, im telling you what they say and why it has started to get into my head.

I don’t know why you tried to change it, but you did try. Go back and read what I wrote, then re-read your mischaracterization of what I wrote.

I didn’t say that, I didn’t hint that, and I don’t believe that. The next time you try to change what I said, I won’t say anything to you ever again.

Agnosticism is the belief that nothing is known or can be known about the nature or existence of god, this presents a deity as an unfalsifiable idea, which means there is no way to determine if it is false, even if is is in fact false. Whereas atheism is imply the lack or absence of belief in any deity or deities. Atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive, I am both an atheist, and an agnostic when the concept of deity presented in unfalsifiable.

No, those are entirely subjective beliefs. Also even were the Koran to contain factually correct assertions, this does not necessarily validate any of the supernatural claims or the existence of any deity.

Whilst true, it is a subjective opinion that suffering is bad, protecting people necessarily may take away some freedoms, in a free society the problem is where we draw that line. One should bear in mind that countless people smoke and drink and gamble and get the pleasure without any ostensible harm.

No, you could argue it will objectively achieve the subjective notion of good presented in the Koran. Good and bad are subjective.

All I can suggest is you take a look at Islamic theocracies and ask yourself if you’d rather live in a free society with all it’s problems, or under theocratic regimes like ISIS or the Taliban, for me it is no choice at all. Also none of this remotely evidences any deity.

I disagree, they are using simplistic absolutes. Nor am I remotely convinced they work as well as you’re suggesting.

Again I’m not convinced, and such draconian religious regimes have been shown to cause immense and unnecessary suffering elsewhere, yes if you prevent divorce there will be no single parent families, but women and children would have no escape from abusive relationships, husbands would be able to act with impunity, and this would be unlikely to bring out the best in us, even in the best examples, in the worst examples I shudder to think.

Well the ticket guarantees only admission, but you such events are usually licenced, and yes you may get lucky, good for you.

How many are denied an education of any kind under a theocracy like the Taliban or ISIS, all women for a start. At least this way they’re given a choice.

At least you get to choose, that has to better than others deciding for you based on their subjective beliefs.

Again this is subjective view, and no one should be allowed to force their subjective religious beliefs on others.

Well we wouldn’t get a chance to express atheism in any way, if we lived in a restrictive theocracy. Choices and freedoms involve consequences, it’s that simple, it’s still better to have them than let someone else force their subjective choices on us.

I don’t believe forcing subjective religious notions of morality on everyone will eradicate those problems, but I do believe it will cause a whole raft of other unbearable problems for many, would be my answer. Most of the restrictions we see in strict religious codes are forced on people based on who they are as well, not just the choices they make, if you are a woman or gay for example then you will likely be persecuted just for being who you are.

this implies only religious parents can offer their children healthy boundaries, which is demonstrably untrue, and again those restrictions don’t come alone, but are often accompanied by bigotry and prejudice.

Even were I to accept that strict religious upbringing is the only way to avoid some questionable or risky behaviours, and I am extremely dubious, this in no way validates the doctrine of those religions. The morality was conceived in archaic patriarchal Bedouin societies, and our morals in post industrialised societies must reflect the enormous changes, cling doggedly to archaic notions of morality as if they are absolutes is very harmful. Far more harmful in my opinion that occasionally placing a bet, having a drink or even smoking.

In my experience unnecessary guilt is often peddled in many religious teachings, and pleasure for its own sake demonised unnecessarily. Far better to help people make healthy choices as best you can, and let them have the freedom to choose, with the knowledge of actual real consequences, not imaginary unevidenced ones.

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Thankyou, this is something I will screenshot and keep going back to, I needed some intelligent reinforcement of my contentions with religion. I lack confidence in my own thoughts to think I am right, you have reaffirmed a lot of the arguments I actually use myself and I am greatful

Not on purpose, I was still talking in context to the examples I gave of the objective problems with drinking and gambling, which are objective. Yes ofcourse it is all subjective. We crossed wires, it happens, I find this subject tricky to get across as I am having to relay what I hear from muslim sources aswell as trying to convey the fact that I am against them. Lets not have bad vibes its not my intention

Well I’m not sure how much intelligence was a factor, just examining ideas without prejudice or favour. I think religions have become adept at presenting false claims and insisting they go unchallenged, when we are allowed to subject ideas to rigorous scrutiny, it stands to reason only the best ideas pass muster based on their manifest merits.

Another example of how repressive theocratic regimes can harm societies, by retarding free thinking. FYI this is true of all totalitarian regimes, not just theocratic ones of course.

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Yes one thing that really scares me about islam especially is the fear people have including myself of openly questioning its doctrines. I actually believe this is why it is quite a succesful religion in terms of how many people follow it, without the fear I think many would leave

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If a certain religion was ‘true’, what would it have to fear by having its doctrines subject to vigorous scrutiny?

Everyone of us here are very happy to have long, in depth discussions about anything we hold dear or possibly believe to be likely to be true.

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Quran verse 5:38: As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.


Surah An-Nur - 2

The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse 1 - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, 2 and do not be taken by pity …

What is the punishment for unmarried sex in Islam?
Brutal punishments are given to men and women who get involved in the sinful act of zina. According to Islamic laws, for premarital sex, the chastisement is 100 lashes, while for adultery the adulterers are punished by stoning to death which is also known as Rajm or severe flogging.

Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot’s people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done .

Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death .

The head on the pole is a direct experience of a young soldier who had an Islamic girlfriend from a small village. When he went back to America, her father killed her and placed her head on a pole in front of the house., I have heard that this is not uncommon. I once lived and worked on Yongsan Base in Seoul and on Osan Base in Pyong-tek. South Korea. I had a lot of contact with people in the military.


Yeah I agree, I always believed that religions that dont like scrutiny, must know they are heavily flawed

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Yeah see I never saw those parts, they never ever talk about them, not suprising. Thanks, its horrible

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The Quran is understood by the Hadith. Different sects attach importance to different scholars. The Quran must be interpreted through the Scholars who wrote the Hadith. Here is a suggestion…

Have fun exploring. You can select the Bible, Quran, or Book of Mormon by clicking on the various books up in the right-hand corner. Enjoy.


All you need to ask them is why their God allows children to have bone cancer.

If they can explain that logically, with all this talk of these gods being wonderful and all good, plus being morally superior then us… then you have a slither of chance of having a half decent argument.


Amazing, thankyou for that :+1:

The theme in your original post seems to be (unless I read it wrong) that the prohibitions of religion have real world benefits when it comes to curtailing the social damage done by having certian vices, like drinking, drugs, gambling, etc…

I don’t disagree with this . . . especially because there were studies done which demonstrate that devout Mormons seem to live a bit longer, and have a lower incidence of chronic illnesses, as they abstain from alcohol, tobacco, and other substances.

So, we reach the conclusion that we need God to live a better life . . . and here is where I have a disconnect.

Syphillis used to be considered God’s punishment that was visited on prostitutes and other “ungodly” people. As humans learned more, condoms and antibiotics showed that such diseases could be defeated . . . and the religious right protested against condoms because we are “contradicting God’s will.”

So, I can make a choice: Use condoms in my sexual encounters, practice abstinence, confine myself to an exclusively monogomous relationship, and so forth . . . with my ultimate point being that I choose to be healthy or choose to be sick, not God choosing for me.

By using God to explain sickness, we risk a dangerous fatalism . . . rather like those Jehova’s Witnesses who refuse blood transfusions.

It is enough that we know that drugs, drinking, smoking, gambling, and eating pork can be bad for you. We shouldn’t have to require God to practice intelligent and informed self-restraint.

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@Adam, It sounds like your religious idiot of a boss is trying to get you to drink the Kool-Aid. Such is the way of Muslims to spread their religion by trying to convince you that it’s a religion of peace. It is not. I would not recommend it. Islam is a horrible and a very immoral religion. You can abstain from doing bad things without the help of ANY religion. Religious fanatics like to disguise their religion as if it were holy and moral. But in reality it’s like selling someone car that’s a lemon. It might sound nice when you’re young and naïve. It might look good. But it’s not. It’s all shit underneath. Disguised to give you plenty of head aches the further you go with it. But the more research you do and the older you get. You see religion for what it really is, it’s trash. Complete and utter bullshit designed to control the masses and make you miserable. It’s only designed to make cult leaders like Joel Osteen rich and keep you poor and docile.

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With all the bans, it sure seems that the self-control and the free will so many theists’ gods gave them just wasn’t up to par. Hmmm…me thinks their gods are not all that omnipotent.

Why don’t you ask your boss why so many Muslims insist women dress in bags? If his response is that it is to protect them, ask why the heck don’t they just ban rape if banning shit is so effective? Ask why women are treated like second-class citizens. If he answers with anything other than, “It’s horrible and they shouldn’t do it,” then he his a rotten human being and should be told that!


And they still shit on women…(some text removed by mod) Islam is a joke.