Please Help! Trying to understand how information/instructions in DNA are not intelligence based

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#1 please help me understand how a billion letter long DNA strand, that has to have the letters in the exact sequence to produce information and instructions - how this exact sequence for information was produced randomly

Most genes require about 1,000 nucleotides/bases. The average protein has over 300 amino acids. So an average length protein represents just one possible sequence among an astronomically large number 10^390 possible amino acid sequences for that length. That is just one protein. Putting it in perspective, there are about 10^65 atoms in the milky way galaxy and 10^80 in the whole universe.

#2 while you are at it. please pretty please tell me how random mutations and natural selection creates information and instructions

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DNA is composed of just four chemical bases, adenine (A), guanine (G), cytosine (C), and thymine (T). So it’s not a zillion possible combinations, DNA bases pair up with each other, A with T and C with G, to form units called base pairs.

The formation is not random, it is chemistry.

I will step aside once @Calilasseia decides to contribute, he is an expert in this field.

Be prepared to read a lot of papers in order to educate yourself on the answer to your question.

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  1. My first reaction is to ask you why in the fuck you would log into an atheist site and ask such a question. Are you fucking stupid? Shouldint you be involved in a DNA discussion on a Biological Sciences site. Atheists are people who do not believe in Gods.

  2. If all of biological science were turned upside down and evolution were proved to be completely wrong, it does not move the God hypothesis one step closer to being true. Biological processes have absolutely nothing to do with Atheism.

  3. Nothing was ever produced randomly? Where in the hell did you ever get this idea of randomness from. Is it random that the simplest atom, ‘hydrogen,’ is formed with a single proton and a single electron? You understand that we do know how atoms are formed and we do have an understanding of the make up of atoms. We know how atoms pair to make molicules. We know how molicules form to make the elements necessary for life.

and (the part you left out) 4.543 billion years.

And still the most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and Helieum. Go fucking figure. How do you suppose all those random protons and electorns just randomly bumped into each other. Where in the univrse to you come up with the idea of ‘random’ and not see simple and naturalistic atomic bonding and chemical interactions.

Your basic assumption is REJECTED, there is no randomness here. We know for a fact, amino acids necessary for life can come from non-life.

Random mutatins do not create information and instructions. You are confusing an Analogy for reality. The DNA code is a chemical interaction that is ‘ANALOGOUS’ to a code. It’s like saying your eye is analgous to a camera. YOUR EYE IS NOT A CAMERA. DNA IS NOT A CODE. DNA is not an actual transfer of information but it helps us to think of it in that way. A code is a symbol which stands in place of a symbol. The four letters CAGT most definitely form a code, being symbols for the names of the four major components of DNA. The names guanine, adenine, thymine and cytosine are not codes: they are primary symbols . Primary symbols stand for real things and not for symbols. The real physical entities guanine, adenine, thymine and cytosine are not codes . If anyone wants to call them codes, let them point to the symbols which might be replaced by these ‘codes’.

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  1. Hear Hear…My first reaction as well.
  1. True Dat
  1. From the “How to argue with Atheists” pamphlet handed out at Sunday school…

Wait…WTF? Really? Dammit I was really hoping to get a new eye lens for my birthday.

Some serious confusion going on here. The descriptions or labels we assign to concepts, systems of thought, models of reality, etc., are just that. I am not Skriten. Skriten is not me. Sarcastic asshole is not me even if I am A sarcastic asshole. A description does not take on physical qualities when it is brought into existence by a thought process. To think otherwise is to devolve into hallucinogenic-type thinking, usually relegated to the babbling knuckleheads under the bridge…

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well david, the strand is a billion in length. so it is not just 4 letters but 4 letters in a 1 billion length strand.

also, chemistry cannot create information and instructions. it does not know how to create a language - which is what the experts say the DNA strand is, and cannot create that.,

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david, i made a mistake. ignore this thanks

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If you begin to assemble a DNA chain the first strand has an extremely limited number of combinations. And each strand also has that same limited number of combinations.

Mother nature does it all the time. Ever count the rings on a tree? From those rings, their size and spacing we can look back in time and determine the rate of growth, thus the weather and other growing conditions.

That is information.

edit: oh yea, the age of the tree.

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You sound like a crackpot. Since when do sequences have to be in certain orders to contain information? I’ve never heard someone suggest that before. It is madness.

When the wind blows and one tiny rock puts a microscopic scratch on another one, that is information. Information is created spontaneously. What you are saying is totally wrong.

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98.5 percent of a human DNA is useless. It is considered “junk DNA”.

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cognostic, thank you so much for the comprehensive reply. sorry it took me a long time to answer but i had to research your points and response. the answers below

#1 the discussion is pretty straightforward, this is about intelligence and intelligence can only come from a mind. thus the biological operations of our bodies was created by an intelligent transcendent entity, which would be God (the Christian God)

#2 see number 1 as to why it would involve God, my argument is for creation of information and that would entail God

#3 well first of all, randomness can’t produce the exact sequence of DNA letters in a billion strand DNA that produces information, messages and instructions - that is what the post is about.

do you agree that randomness cannot produce that exact sequence to produce information, messages and instructions? and sure we do know about chemistry/atoms, but the big elephant in the room is creation of information and instructions - this is where God comes in

#4 population genetics studies say that random process producing the proteins in the body would not have enough time in 4.543 billion years to randomly create what we see

#5 sure, chemistry is involved, but how does chemical/chemical reactions create and exact language in DNA for information and instructions…chemicals can’t talk

#6 DNA is actually digital computer code which have specificity of sequence which determines function and – creating an incredibly complex inter-related set of machines, factories, roads, docking stations, fire stations in the cell. Random, unguided process could not do that. sure, CAGT form the letters of the alphabet of the language in DNA, so the CAGT are not codes as you mention.

random changes in the sequence of the DNA code consistently degrades function, not increase its function or meaning. intelligence expert from MIT Dr. Murray Eden states “no currently existing formal language [like DNA] can tolerate random changes in the symbol sequences which express its sentences. Meaning is almost invariably destroyed.” randomness is not an option

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Claim. There’s nothing in DNA that points to a designer. What objective evidence can you demonstrate for the existence of any deity?

Again, claim.

See to Cog’s answer. You missed it.

DNA is not code. DNA is made up guanine, adenine, thymine and cytosine. There are symbols that classify those.

But it does not evidence a “God of The Gaps Fallacy”. You are debating from a postulate without evidence for such an assumption.

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You forgot about non-random chemistry and non-random selection.

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@JC1432 Even if I accepted your position (NOT), since over 98% of all human DNA is junk, why did your god fuck up so much? Why didn’t your god assemble neat and tidy DNA strands devoid of massive mistakes?

I am a retied electrician, and if I wired a new house build but 98% of all wiring was a complete waste and extra wiring, I would deserve to be fired on the spot.

Is your god a complete idiot?

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MrDawn, thanks for the great replies. below are the answers

#1 DNA has 1 billion strands (with CAGT letters) that have to be in the exact order to do its job in creating information, language instructions, and messages coded in a 1 billion strand 4 letter language that has to be in the exact sequence is clearly something only an intelligent designer could create

– creating an incredibly complex inter-related set of machines, factories, roads, docking stations, fire stations in the cell.

#2 number 1 proves the creator is the only thing to be over the language of DNA

#3 i think i addressed Cog’s answer. maybe i missed on answering it right. i’ll wait for his rebuttal

#4 we know of nothing in the universe that can create information, messages and instructions except an intelligent designer. if you know of something that can do that please let me know.

this is not god of the gaps, but what we do know, not what we don’t know

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No it does not prove a creator. It proves DNA and RNA exists, nothing more. It says nothing of where it originated from & I asked you a question. You are trying to insert your beliefs into Science and that does not work!

What objective evidence can you demonstrate for the existence of a deity?

Yes it is. You do not know for a fact therefor “god”. Your game is Watchmaker Analogies and Designer Fallacies.

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Trees, lava, ice buildup.

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“Natural selection, the blind, unconscious, automatic process which Darwin discovered, and which we now know is the explanation for the existence and apparently purposeful form of all life, has no purpose in mind. It has no mind and no mind’s eye. It does not plan for the future. It has no vision, no foresight, no sight at all. If it can be said to play the role of watchmaker in nature, it is the blind watchmaker” - Richard Dawkins

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i refuted the rings issue in another reply, hope you got it

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I have no fucking clue. I’m not a DNA expert. I am not a genetics expert. I’m not a biologist. HOWEVER… I do have a suggestion. If you truly want to learn about such things, then there are scientific studies on such things that are readily available to read if you search for them. Also, I am willing to bet there are online chat sites out there dedicated specifically to those subjects. And, believe it or not, there may actually be EXPERTS on those sites who can help answer your questions. Ain’t that some of the craziest shit you’ve ever heard?

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For any one who is serious, this might be helpful to explain how crazy what is being posted here is (don’t be scared by the references to quantum stuff, first the lecture covers classical information).