One for all you theists out there, somewhere

Debate Room
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Smh, your post was feeble, shallow and blathering. Go back to re-read the " Judge, jury and executioner " comment and see that it typed responding to " Why is it they dont get one and are doomed to eternal punishment? Right, logical "

You seem to have a low esteem of yourself because you are under different illusions, such as your Paul comment being derided or taking harmless and innocent remarks as " … employing terse derogatory responses ". If I should ask, will you be able to provide proof, of me deriding your " … short informed critical assessment, not complete of course, about Paul’s life and views … " humble effort, hmm?

Just so you know, I have a high displeasure threshold, my please mode was 10000% intact and unwavering. I could see the sense and/or point to waste needful and appropriate Bible quote, that’s going to swoosh jet fighter fly over heads, so I stayed mute. There is the Bible quote that states about Apostle Paul and his letters, as being often misunderstood, so I can only empathise with you misunderstanding Apostle Paul

If you are wise, you’ll take my post(s) for what it is and not how it’s delivered.

There is no denomination in the kingdom of heaven. God is denomination agnostic. Protocol, requires the right designation be used God and god. Does it bother you when I used “G” instead of “g” for God, hmm?

How did you compute, I think you you’re lamentably hell bound? That, right there, is something straight out of the book of a " Judge, jury and executioner "

Are you always in the habit of making assumptions. Of course you people here have quite a lot of personal experience and understanding about belief and religion, so the reason why I earlier advanced to @David_Killens that, you guys too daily transact in faith

" If a crooked stick is before you, you need not explain how crooked it is. Lay a straight one down by the side of it, and the work is well done ". I cant remember where I read that from, but sure is better than aim to shift another’s viewpoint

[quote=“Grinseed, post:190, topic:96”]I
can read my own Bible quotes and I can follow theological arguments in profound detail reading Aquinas or Origen et al and for quaint meaningless “deepities” I always have my desk calendar.
[/quote]
Aquinas or Origen must be flawless two headed human beings. The realisation of how hollow a person is, is enough to make such take off and bolt

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Hmmmm :thinking: sounds a lot like someone else who couldn’t read… yup - this other poster couldn’t read- misrepresented themselves… YES, YES … and didn’t debate - just was out for what this “someone” considered a “win” …

Buh buh

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No, I look both ways before I cross the street. Only a dumbass would not look before stepping off the curb. I do not use “faith”, I use evidence, and decide based on the reliability of my senses and other factors.

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My self esteem is fine, thanks for asking.
You admit you only responded to my last question.
I could have expected a fuller answer if you had thought it worthy.
Mine was a humble effort, considering the many books I have read and discussions I have had with theists on this one topic over the years and it was incomplete mainly due to forum limitations and you pointedly missed my comment that it was not original, you see, the question of Paul’s faith and sanity has been a subject for scrutiny for several hundred years; I ride on giants’ shoulders.

You question my low esteem and make a veiled stab at my hubris for suggesting it a ‘humble effort’ all in one paragraph and fail to address anything I actually said about Paul.
You make a hubristic claim to tolerance, pity me for not understanding your view, fail to establish that view, and then withhold the very Bible quote you seem to think will provide a pertinent answer, judging me unworthy of any such courtesy.
Can you not see the pattern? A mix of derision and a failure to address issues about faith
It doesn’t bother me what word or spelling you use to describe your god. It is an issue of how I use the word. ‘god’ is the noun, like ‘unicorn’ both of which are myths. “God” is the unoriginal name for the Christian deity. The capitalised G denotes a thing, an entity, and at the same time its supremacy, which I refute. Its a theist convention, which I am disinclined to practice. Its a quirk of mine.

I apologise but, it has been the assumed majority claim amongst theists I have debated that as an atheist I am bound for hell and the lake of fire. I duly note my presumption. You suggest I have hope of redemption?
We all make assumptions where there is little evidence to work with, its part of the process by which we learn when assumptions are answered. But where is the assumption here? I made a request and then a claim. I know I will not be moved by your comments which also clearly indicate the intransigence of your position. Not an assumption, a deduction.

The “crooked stick” quote comes from Charles Spurgeon, the celebrated ‘Prince of Preachers’ which I find curious because Charles is promoting the scientific method, despite it being a parable about spiritual truth and error. I am unimpressed because it is not an argument and you use it to suggest one of us is “crooked and wrong” simply on mere superficial comparison. I am sure you aren’t rooting for me.

Yes, I confess I have had to make a lot of assumptions here because you persist in avoiding to present anything of substance beyond petty criticisms. You deem me so unworthy you withhold a Pauline verse you seem sure will add to debate. Talk of judges, juries and executioners.

Your last comments on Aquinus and Origen are unintelligble. FYI both were devout Christian theologians. Aquinus attempted a merge of Platonic and Aristotelian interpretations of natural and supernatural issues into a unified theological whole. Origen debated the academic pagan Celsus on basic Christian tenets. They were all single headed individual human beings, why would you need to make such an asinine comment? Am I wrong to assume the hollow person comment was directed to me? Or is that my hubris?

Hollow as I might be, I am persistent if nothing else, so I’ll rephrase the important question: How is Paul revered for his faith when it was a physical event that prompted his conversion?

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Mate you are a lot of things, but hollow ain’t one of them. Neither are you wilfully ignorant imo. :innocent:

Just sayin’.

A simple quiz: about how many (ballpark figure) of the apologists we get here ever admit to the possibility of error?

How may confuse theology, biblical hermeneutics and exegesis as lending themselves to to intellectual honesty?

My irony meter broke when I saw your new little friend accuse you of hubris. (is that even possible for an atheist?)

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@Grinseed

From post 172 - my little
Smilingbirdfood… how many theists do you know that describe God’s Word in this context, or aren’t happy to let you know they are “saved thru Christ’s blood?” … :smirk:

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From memory, none, not all at the same time at least, which makes the enigmatic identity of Evathyst’s religion faith or whatever all the more intriguing despite his claim its none of our business. I am left with four possibilites: a devout hostile Muslim or more likely a rancourous Jew or a dishonest troll or something I’m too stupid to guess because it sits outside my range of reasonable explanation.

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@Grinseed

Hmmmhmmm… in my experience, faith to a theist means some thing -
Normally covered in Hebrews 11:1, however, quoting a book :open_book: that we agreed “exists” without understanding the particular investment this poster has in “said” book, well that’s like talking about eggs being mentioned in a cookbook. Not disclosing whether one views the eggs as “hard boiled” first, doesn’t leave room for discussion, IMO.

I :heart: your response, very informative as usual and well said.

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Must have gotten your goat for such negative outburst like this to roll out from you

The Bible is an extraordinary and multifaceted book. It is logos

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I remember a certain time a bus crushed a businesswoman, when attempting to cross the road after being dropped off by her driver around 7.20pm 2 months ago. Nelson, the driver of the bus fled after knocking her down. The businesswoman died on the spot. As far as you know, she is a dumbass right?

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Is that a reference to Jesus?

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You accrue undue and unmerited importance. I to yourself. I passingly commented on your seemingly low self-esteem and didn’t you asked you about the state of it or how you feel

I give fuller answers whenever deserved and/or to whomever deserves it

Fawning and fake humility are a lethal combination

Ride on pygmies’ shoulders more like it

For me to address anything you actually said about Paul will be wasting good ammo

I see a pattern repeating itself, since you still aren’t enable to give exact proof(s), if I should ask, to provide proof, of me deriding your " … short informed critical assessment, not complete of course, about Paul’s life and views … " humble effort, hmm?

I didnt once call you out on your idiosyncrasy, but you think, you’re entitled to type " Your preferred forum style seems to be using powerful rebuttals over minor issues, (‘G’ or ‘g’ for god? It does matter despite what you think) " and not hear back

Apology accepted

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, then, it is time to pause and reflect

Why not? What makes you think you haven’t hope of redemption? It must be such a big faith you’re exercising there to think and/or believe so

If I am given a dollar/pound for every time I sit on a door invited to seat on without checking it really could safely take my weight, but assuming it would, I’ll be a trillionaire by now

If you thought, I really couldn’t remember, then means you have lot more learning to do.

God, is the first Scientist, the original " Mad Scientist " as it were and if we are to put it in that poetic licence way

"15Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him.
16 He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing. "

  • 2 Peter 3:15-17

There you go again on an assumption making trip. What made you think, its going to be a Pauline verse, huh? I had in mind 2 Peter 3:16 from above 2 Peter 3:15-17, when and where I previously typed " There is the Bible quote that states about Apostle Paul and his letters, as being often misunderstood, so I can only empathise with you misunderstanding Apostle Paul. " OK.

I did because I knew my sarcasm and point that they are human beings, just same, as you are, will get lost on you and you proved I was right my remark will swoosh fly over your head

The same way Abel was, the same way Noah was, the same way Abraham was, the same way Moses was, the same way David was, the same way Mary was, the same way Peter was, the same way the Roman centurion was, I guess you’re getting the drift. Faith is a gift of God. Breath is a gift from God

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I will speak for my self and not hold brief for anyone. As I have advanced from the very onset, there are all sorts of errors committed in translation of texts, words et cetera of the Bible

Theology, biblical hermeneutics, exegesis and intellectual honesty, when well balanced together are intrinsically linked

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@Evathyst Re: Sheldon - “It (the bible) contains errant nonsense.”

You- “Must have gotten your goat for such negative outburst like this to roll out from you”

Negative outburst???.. :confused:… Sounds like a fairly damn reasonable and accurate statement to me. What’s YOUR malfunction?..

Oh, wait… Heeeeeey… :thinking:… You wouldn’t by chance be “kin” to a guy named Kenny, would you?.. (sniff-sniff-sniff)… Anybody else smell dirty gym socks?.. (waving hand in dismissal)… Eh, nevermind. Must just be my brain tumor acting up.

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Nice
I’m enjoying your rebuttals. Please keep it up :sunglasses:

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Your response describes a tragic accident, we were discussing “faith”.

Your response is a classic non sequitur.

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So your god desires for everyone to know of it and worship it. This god is described as being all powerful, all knowing, capable of creating this universe and controlling everything.

Yet, the most important message this god sent, this book which is the instructions and word of god, is allowed to contain errors?

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2 Peter?
Supposedly written about 68 AD, before Peter is crucified upside down at his own request, during the pogrom of Nero, but was more likely written after his death in the popular Christian tradition of pseudographical writings, as is the opinion of most Bible experts today.

This letter contains the final orders, advice, blessings from ‘the Rock’ and a timeless reminder of the imminent return of Jesus. And it does include the comment, “16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their destruction.”

Well firstly Evathyst, at the time this was said to be written, just prior to the irrevocable split between the synagogue and the new religion that Peter led, and it is at this time the majority of the early followers of Christ were still Jewish converts and amongst the things Paul wrote, that were “hard to be understood” were his explanations about how those early followers, while still being Jewish and still being the heirs of the promises God made to Abraham, were not liable to observe Mosaic Law, and were further exempt from the needs of circumcision and dietary restrictions.
There was also, for Peter some very awkward things Paul wrote concerning his un-witnessed divine appointment as the 13th apostle, and receiving his very own personal gospel from scripture and exclusive revelations from Jesus, and not from men, especially not those lowly apostles in Jerusalem, of whom he had worked harder and done more, in spreading the word of Jesus. Then, there was Paul’s haughty record of the confrontation at Antioch where he publicly denounced Peter as a hypocrite for leaving the Gentile feast to dine with the newly arrived Jews contingent. There was much more Paul wrote about himself which must have been confusing for Peter’s Jewish followers to understand. Its all there if you read it. Peter was evidently in a forgiving state of mind, given that he was offering his last advice for the future unity of the faith, either that or the letter was fabricated later to serve the anti-semitic agenda of the Gentile church.

But at this point I have to say, Evathyst, you are as supremely arrogant as Paul revealed himself to be.
You have been bagging me about my assumptions and the impudence of my knowledge and here, after mincing about like a prima donna, preciously withholding from me, and everyone else reading here, the one Bible verse you proclaimed would fully explain my ignorance and answer my question and we find it a complete furphy having nothing to do at all with my question, because you didn’t even have the courtesy or discipline to read or comprehend it. This is not the way to conduct yourself in a forum.

I doubt you read my “Paul of Tarsus” post either. You just allowed yourself to react emotionally over its content and petulantly respond with inflated indignation to my first question which remains unanswered. You ignored the content of further posts and simply made snide sarcastic comments without addressing the second question which 2 Peter as we see does not answer.
You reveal your limited appreciation of the circumstances surrounding the lives and writings of Peter and Paul which serves to provide a deeper understanding of their work. But you are happy to peel off all the pleasing references to redemption, promises of life eternal, and the favours of your god and leave the rest ignored.

Don’t bother answering either of my questions, now. As I said, I can find the answers myself reading from the Bible as I have everyday for the past fifty years. And from my desk calendar.

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Let me jolt your memory.

Of course, we are discussing faith and so why I typed that " Risk, is a function of faith. Driving to work, crossing the street, taking a shower et cetera are each and/or all stepping out in faith. If you lacked faith you won’t step out to drive to work, cross the street, take a shower et cetera. Humans, have different aptitude of evaluating faith " but you won’t have any of that, and so making you type, saying " No. I look both ways before I cross the street. Only a dumbass would not look before stepping off the curb " This prompted me to reinforced the point that, the lady left home with faith, to go to work, to cross the street, she obviously isn’t a dumbass, and this not taking to the gospel according to @David_Killens , as the lady looked both ways before stepping off the kerb

Familiarity of the phrase " non sequitur " does not necessarily mean understanding when to rightly or how to correctly use it

So? Man is not perfect, but you wouldn’t know what the antidote or solution to what " allowed to contain errors " is.