Christians like @Cr2187 get “free will” confused with extortion. If I told him at gun point that he could give me his money and social security or I’d dump diesel gasoline all over him and light him on fire. He’d know right then he doesn’t have a choice in the matter. He’d think I was a psycho. But when he a gets a book that has a Sky Father giving him that very same option: slavery or an eternal fiery death. He just eats it up.
People who are wanting to serve an imaginary sky father are like slaves in the 1800s wanting to serve a new master. It’s pathetic. Talk about having a para relationship with an imaginary friend.
Something just dawned on me about that particular question of yours. In the manner in which you asked, it is apparent you have an EXTREME misunderstanding about atheists in general. You seem to think all atheists have been atheists their entire lives and have never believed in your god. Therefore, it puzzles you as to why we care about what is in the bible. If I may, please allow me to clear up some of that misconception for you, so that you do not sound like such an ignorant doof in the future…
With a few exceptions here and there, MOST atheists (myself included) were born and raised in a religious family (Baptist/Methodist for me). In my case, church and Sunday school every week. Vacation bible school every summer. Baptized at age 8. Was taught all the bible stories and listened to countless sermons. Bottom line, I had NO CHOICE but to learn about the bible and god and satan and heaven and hell. And guess what… Even as a little kid, the more I learned about it, the LESS AND LESS it made sense to me. I just didn’t know WHY at the time. And as I grew older, became better educated, and learned more about life and society in general, the teachings of the bible made EVEN LESS sense. At least I sorta knew WHY by then, but - unfortunately - the fear of Satan and hell kept me from questioning things too much. Thus, a majority of my life was spent with my rational brain in a perpetual “tug-of-war” with the part of my brain indoctrinated with the bible teachings. Indecision, anxiety, and fear were ever-present companions within my psyche. It was a miserable way to live, to say the least.
Wanna know how I finally “escaped” that mental anguish? Well, for starters, I met an amazing woman (my wife) who is EXTREMELY knowledgeable of the bible. (Kindergarten through high school graduation in a private Christian school where a bible study class had to be passed every year to advance. She made straight A’s.) She also happens to be something of a research fiend with an avid interest in different religions and ancient cultures. (She is a Pagan, by the way.) Anyway, long story short, she provided me with information I had never heard before in regards to stories in the bible that were “hijacked” from religions that existed centuries prior to Christianity. She also encouraged me to read parts of the bible that were never mentioned in Sunday School. In the end, the PRIMARY REASON I am now an atheist is BECAUSE OF what I read in the bible itself. It simply makes ZERO rational, reasonable, logical sense. And it is suppose to be THE PERFECT WORDS of an all-knowing/all-powerful PERFECT GOD??? Seriously? But - hey - whatever floats your boat, man. No skin off my nose. Make no mistake, though, most atheists out there know more about your bible and god than many preachers I have known, and they learned about those things long before they ever considered themselves atheists. Sooo… Uh, just wanted to fill you in there to help keep you from looking so foolish when asking questions in the future. You’re welcome.
I got this one for you White. (Not that I actually think you need any ‘help.’ I assume you just got bored of talking to the theist.)
Moral absolute? What in the fuck are you talking about. Give me one moral position that is an ‘absolute.’ There is no such thing. Next: There is probably no moral absolute that your own version of God has not violated. The Christian God after all, is the god of “Do as I say and not as I do.” Demonstrate ONE moral absolute dictate to be true in every case.
AWWW FUCK! I should have married your wife. (*Ducking quicly and running from the room as the SWISHHHHHH! of a rolling pin barely misses my head.) But sweetie, I was just teasing Tin Man, really. Besides, remember, I am in Asia. We are never going to meet up. It was a (SWISHHHHH! Ducking quickly) joke I telly you. Just a joke. (Running from the building. AAAAAAAAGGGGHHHHHH! ) (*She likes it when I run away. My little monkey butt waddling down the road. It always makes her laugh. Everything will be back to normal… WAIT! This is normal. Nothing to look at here folks. Move on. Move on.
And here we go again with half educated preaching and regurgitating the fake news the unwashed reiterate from their pulpits.
1: TACITUS:
Tacitus was a Roman Historian writing at the turn of the 1st Century CE, i.e between 90CE and 120CE. Many theists make much of a brief mention of a “Chrestus” and use it to bolster their beliefs without ever realising what the passage actually says.
Just to make sure no fantasy mad theist argues the point here is the passage in English and Latin:
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.”
In Latin: ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit, quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Chrestianos appellabat. auctor nominis eius Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta undique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque. igitur primum correpti qui fatebantur, deinde indicio eorum multitudo ingens haud proinde in crimine incendii quam odio humani generis convicti sunt. [Wiki]
The most anyone can get out of this rather inaccurate passage (Pilate was Prefect not Procurator and there was not an 'immense multitude" of christians anywhere much less in Rome in 60CE) Is that a Jewish Cult of Chrestus was in Rome in about 64CE according to reports some 30 - 50 years later.
That is all you get from Tacitus. A third hand report of an historical event that has nothing to do with your Jesus figure.
2: * Suetonius: TWO references…neither of a christ figure… 1.2 Suetonius, Lives, Nero, 16:16. He devised a new form for the buildings of the city and in front of the houses and apartments he erected porches, from the flat roofs of which fires could be fought; and these he put up at his own cost. He had also planned to extend the walls as far as Ostia and to bring the sea from there to Rome by a canal. During his reign many abuses were severely punished and put down, and no fewer new laws were made: a limit was set to expenditures; the public banquets were confined to a distribution of food; the sale of any kind of cooked viands in the taverns was forbidden, with the exception of pulse and vegetables, whereas before every sort of dainty was exposed for sale. Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition. He put an end to the diversions of the chariot drivers, who from immunity of long standing claimed the right of ranging at large and amusing themselves by cheating and robbing the people. The pantomimic actors and their partisans were banished from the city.
1.2 Suetonius, Divus Claudius 25"From Rome he (Claudius) expelled the perpetually tumultuating Jews prompted by Chrestus." [Boman (2012)]
"Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus,[74] he expelled them from Rome." [J. C. Rolfe]
[74] Another form of Christus; see Tert. Apol. 3 (at the end). It is uncertain whether Suetonius is guilty of an error in chronology or is referring to some Jew of that name. The former seems probable because of the absence of quodam. Tac. Ann. 15.44, uses the correct form, Christus, and states that He was executed in the reign of Tiberius.
Note that in each reference after the first one, Suetonius is merely repeating the legends of the believers not that of an undisputable historical event.
Lucian; Was a playwright, The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account… You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.
Lucian of Samosata, *[The Passing of Peregrinus]
Now let us have a look at this evidence for your Jesus figure as described in the gospels…oh, wait…NOT ONE of these sources you quote talk about your Jesus figure, they talk about CHRISTIANS and their beliefs., No one denies that christians (chrestians) existed in their multitudes of cults and sects ,each with their own sacred gospel or gospels in the 1st to 3rd centuries. They are not evidence of your Jesus figure they are evidence of a religious movement…
Now to Josephus: Two entries: entry number one has been accepted as a late interpolation (A FAKE) by a scribe as late as the 7th century CE.
The second entry mentions a Jesus but as that was a very common name at the time it more probably, given the context refers to a well known priest of the High Temple in Jerusalem. In addition the term “brother in” or “of” is unclear. Again not definitive proof of your jesus figure at all.
Before bringing such amateurish arguments to this page, please, just look up wiki. I am tired of dealing with simpletons.
You sure about that? You really want a Hungarian Gypsy who loves knives and practices witchcraft to have easy access to things like your hair, or toothbrush, or saliva, or other bodily fluids?.. (flinching slightly as razor-sharp throwing knife embeds itself in the wall directly behind my right ear)… Hold on a sec, Cog… (yelling into kitchen)… Babe, you know I’m just bullshitting with Cog! And could you please aim for the left side next time? We’ve talked about this, remember? My right ear is my good ear! I can’t afford to lose it! Thank you, Babe! Love you!.. (returning to chat)… Anyway, she says hello and hopes you are doing well.
Hey Eli! Sorry you got banned! If you’re reading this I never got a chance to rub your butt. I know how cold it gets during the night. I’m on “www.christianboners.com” if you want to hook up.
You really are determined to make a spectacle of yourself before a global public audience, aren’t you?
First of all, the fantasy “global flood” never happened. It’s fiction. If you need the requisite spoon feeding, as so many mythology fanboys do, I can provide several cogent reasons why it’s fiction. But I’ll save that for later if need be, along with a nice little surprise that you manifestly never thought of.
Second, even if this fantasy event had happened, your disgusting apologia for mass biocide is precisely that - disgusting. Though enthusiasts for genocidal measures have a habit of resorting to blaming the victims. Apart from the fact that your apologia paints a picture of your cartoon magic man as being a psychotic despot, there’s also the little matter, which you completely failed to address within said disgusting apologia, why billions of plants and animals had to be exterminated as well.
Indeed, given that your goat herder mythology asserts that your cartoon magic man purportedly possesses all sorts of fantastic powers, this necessarily includes the ability to modify behaviour, and indeed your mythology asserts elsewhere that your cartoon magic man engaged in precisely this practice on at least one separate occasion. Which on its own invalidates any apologetic fabrications about “free will” you want to toss into the ring at this point.
As for Frank Turek, he’s a presuppositionalist charlatan, as indeed all presuppositionalists are charlatans.
For that matter, since theology itself is nothing more than the fine art of making shit up, in order to pretend that a cartoon magic man is something other than the product of the rectal passages of piss-stained bronze Age incels, no one here who understands that apposite fact will take your wibblings seriously, except in pursuit of the proper discoursive duty of seeing that bullshit does not pass here unchallenged.
As for this:
this is, of course, total bollocks. Anyone genuinely interested in the question of the origin of a given entity, requires evidence in order to answer that question. That you posted this miasmatic drivel on its own demonstrates your intellectual vacuity and bankruptcy. But I’m aware of how rigour is an alien concept to mythology fanboys.
Fatuous drivel.
Oh wait, we have voluminous amounts of evidence that brick buildings are artefacts constructed by human beings. We’re back again to that word “EVIDENCE”. I don’t think a brick building was built by humans because of nebulous fantasies about “design”, a concept you manifestly know nothing about, but because I have EVIDENCE that human beings construct brick buildings. Indeed, on several occasions I’ve observed this activity being performed by some of the human beings in question.
On the other hand, NO ONE has observed a cartoon magic man magically poofing things into existence.
Furthermore, the mere fact that brick buildings are observably different from the biosphere, renders Paley’s watchmaker bullshit null and void. Not least because brick building are not self-replicating entities, and of course there’s the little matter of how “design” apologetic fabrications duplicitously conflate two entirely different activities. First of all, human design activities have never shared any attributes with supernatural magic poofing. Supernatural magic poofing is asserted by mythology fanboys like you, to involve perfect foreknowledge of the behaviour of parts both in isolation and when integrated. Humans have never had “perfect foreknowledge” of anything.
Indeed, human design activity consists of the following steps:
[1] Try out some ideas;
[2] Discard the failures;
[3] Build upon the successes.
As a corollary, human design activity is far closer to evolution than to supernatural magic poofing, because those three steps above are essentially how evolution works. So on those grounds as well, your apologetic farts fail miserably.
Even worse, pedlars of “design” assertions like you don’t know what is required, to turn those assertions into something other than the products of their rectal passages. “I’m too stupid to understand how testable natural processes could have achieved this, therefore a cartoon magic man did it” is risible excrement. But risible excrement is all I see being offered by mythology fanboys, so no surprises there.
Indeed, the problem of developing a reliable means of detecting “design”, is recognised among actual scientists (as opposed to pedlars of mendacious apologetic fabrications), as being such a sufficiently difficult problem, that any working solution will guarantee the inventor thereof a Nobel Prize. That this hasn’t been awarded for any such work should be telling you something important.
Plus, it’s also telling that you think evolution equates to “chance”, which it doesn’t. What part of “testable natural processes” do you not understand again? Indeed, I exerted much diligent effort explaining several relevant concepts to you in this post, which you manifestly never bothered reading, except for the purpose of apologetic quote mining.
Bare faced lie.
First, over 1½ million peer reviewed scientific papers, document in exquisite detail the evidence for evolution. Evidence that includes direct experimental test and validation of evolutionary postulates, and replication of speciation events in the laboratory.
Second, over 100,000 peer reviewed scientific papers from the organic chemistry literature, document in exquisite detail the laboratory experiments establishing that chemical reactions implicated in the origin of life work. Indeed, I’m reminded at this point of this latest piece of research from a japanese laboratory, in which the scientists involved managed to produce self-replicating protocells starting with nothing more sophisticated than a mix of amino acids, thioesters and lipids. The full paper in Nature Communications can be read here.
Oh, and don’t bother quote mining a paper that everyone else can download for free and read in full, you’ll only embarrass yourself here further if you do.
Oh look, Looby Loo thinks he has a “gotcha”. Ha ha ha ha ha.
Already covered life above. Intelligence arises when the need to process external data makes a nervous system a necessity, and if you had paid attention in biology class, you would have learned that there are all manner of different variations on the nervous system them, ranging from that of nematode worms to humans. Indeed, all the scientific evidence amassed to date, points to intelligence being the product of brain chemistry. This includes instances of intelligent behaviour observed in non-human species, which not only have never read your goat herder mythology, but are currently incapable of doing so. As for emotions, we have evidence for these being the product of brin chemistry again, involving such substances as vasopressin and oxytocin.
As for “moral absolutes”, well this presumes that such entities actually exist, a question that even elementary students of philosophical ethics will tell you is an unsolved problem. On the other hand, I am aware that there exists an abundant scientific literature, documenting the evidence for the evolutionary and biological basis of:
[1] our capacity for ethical thought, and;
[2] the motivation to act thereupon.
This literature covers such topics as:
[1] The evolution of brain development genes expressed in the ventromedial prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that has been known to be implicated in ethical decision making for over a century, and;
[2] Observed instances of ethical behaviour in non-human species, which again have never read your goat herder mythology and are currently incapable of doing so.
Indeed, the voluminous evidence informing us that behaviour can be altered by interfering with brain chemistry, should on its own be telling you something important,. though it’s probably wasted upon you because you’re too emotionally attached to your imaginary cartoon magic man.
Oh, as for the idea that your cartoon magic man is a “moral entity”, even the assertions of your own goat herder mythology flush this idea down the toilet hard. Not least, the 200-plus pages devoted to gleeful depictions of genocidal Lebensraum wars, which your mythology asserts were either directly ordered by your cartoon magic man (hilariously AFTER the issuing of the supposed “commandment” known as “thou shalt not kill”), or were given silent assent thereby. This includes one hideous instance in which the piss-stained Bronze Age incels that scribbled your mythology, gleefully dwelt upon the matter of kidnapping underage girls as sex slaves, after the unfortunate girls in question were forced to watch their parents being butchered in the genocidal Lebensraum war in question.
Indeed, I’m minded to note that the idea of “morality” that is contained in your goat herder mythology, consists at bottom of “kill all who do not conform”, and is explicitly presented as such in several key passages.
Are you going to exert some effort to make it hard for me in future?
Oh, by the way, Paley’s Watchmaker bullshit is refuted by the history of watchmaking.
With respect to watches, many of these are just so much junk unless there’s a human being around to wind them up.
Indeed, when one traces the history of watches, one finds again a process of gradual development involving trial and error. The first portable clocks were still far too big to be carried in a pocket, let alone worn upon a wrist, and the first such instances of these, back in the 15th century, only had an hour hand. The accuracy of these devices was so low that they were little more than expensive toys for rich people.
It took finite time for watchmakers to learn, for example, that the force delivered by a mainspring is not a constant, and that some means of taking account of this had to be devised, and the first of these, a device known as a stackfreed, was abandoned after about 100 years because of the undesirable friction it introduced into the mechanism. The fusee, a different device, persisted for longer, but was eventually abandoned in the 19th century when a superior solution arose.
The balance spring only appeared in 1657, and the first watches with a minute hand only appeared around 1680 as a result of the development of the balance spring. The verge escapement, which had been used in large pendulum driven clocks since the 13th century, was replaced by the cylinder escapement in 1695 - it took humans three hundred years or so to move on to this better idea.
We had to wait until 1759 for the lever escapement, which, ironically, only made major inroads into Swiss watchmaking around 1900. We had to wait until 1923 for the first successful self-winding system, based upon converting the wearer’s arm motion into rotary motion that kept the mainspring tension constant. The Incabloc shock protection system, to protect jewel bearings from critical failure stresses if the watch was dropped, wasn’t invented until 1934. The first working electrically powered watches did not appear until 1957.
Once again, the history of watches is replete with trial and error, discarding of failures, and building upon successes, and the development of the modern wrist watch bears more resemblance to an evolutionary process than to “magic design”.
Splendid as usual, Cali. But I wouldn’t hold my breath in expecting Cr2187 to provide another “challenge” any time soon. Seems that last post of his was a drive-by. Haven’t seen hide nor hair of him since.
To me. When you indoctrinate or program someone into a religion, there’s layers and layers of brain washing that go in to it. I’m not surprised he’s mimicking what he’s been told and heard from his parents, fellow cult members, and his minister. I don’t see how anyone can believe in anything without evidence. When someone tells me something truth or a lie I take it with a grain of salt until otherwise. Sooner if there is evidence for or against the claim.
LOL - JWs used this with one step further - throw the separate pieces in a box and shake it. See if you get a watch.
So a better more accurate comparison is taking six ingredients… bread slices bacon tomato cheese lettuce turkey … throw them in a box. Give say about a billion folks their own box to shake. Yah, someone is getting a clubhouse.
Hi all…I am new here. I have been observing (lurking) for a while to get a gist of the tone and approach of the “family”. I recognize many similarities between some of you and myself. I was raised baptist, baptized, grew up and gave up fantasy-thinking, worked on learning HOW to think, had a family, etc, etc. Currently working on helping my grandchildren learn how to think for themselves.
Respectfully, I have to take exception to connecting religion to mental illness. While it is true that they may co-exist, mental illness is not a requirement for massively delusional thinking. The capacity that human beings have for extreme thinking as well as the manifestations thereof are easily demonstrated through a cursory examination of history, both recent and ancient.
I am somewhat in awe of how patient some of you are with the asinine arguments such as Eli’s. It is as if he/they think that not only do assertions qualify as facts, but also that somehow faith supplants the need or requirement for evidence. The plethora of fallacies becomes absurd at some point. All of you who at least attempt to politely and calmly explain the problems in logic, etc., are to be commended. Those of you who want to slap the shit out of someone to try to get through the muck, are also to be commended, albeit for different reasons…While I share the label of Atheist with you, I do not assume that we will always agree and it is my pleasure to let you know that when we do not agree, try to remember that I am always right…zzz
bacon 
tomato 
cheese 
lettuce 
turkey 
… throw them in a box. Give say about a billion folks their own box to shake. Yah, someone is getting a clubhouse.