Thanks for the Bart Ehrman recommendation. I’ve liked most of the stuff of his I’ve read, except “Did Jesus Exist?” which I found disappointing. Erman has a full lecture on Youtube on ‘How Jesus became god’. I’ve been meaning to watch it.
Some Roman thinker, I’m not sure who, said something like;
“To the ordinary people the gods are real, to the wise man, foolish, to the ruler, useful”
I too think Constantine used christianity. From memory, I think he also sent his mother to Jerusalem to get some magic oil from Jesus’ alleged tomb. His agenda; power. Many astute rulers through have used religion as a means to an end. Still do.
It is also my opinion that an unknown number of individuals in the various priestly castes have done the same thing throughout history. EG The Egyptian priests of Amun and many televangelists today. However, the Catholic church is still champion . It is arguably the most systemically corrupt organisation on the planet.
I fully agree. For me there is a vast gulf between personal faith and organised religion. We are expected to believe that the latter is merely an extension of the former and exists to support and formalise one’s faith. In truth, religion is about control and power.
It ranges from priests supervising animal sacrifices because they get to eat the meat after the essence/smell has been sent to the gods, up to the Catholic church. Did you know that when the papacy moved to Avignon in France, they were the largest employers in the city? And whom did they employ? Prostitutes, for priests. Celibacy was not originally abstaining from sex it was being forbidden to marry. Before the 1100s, priests and even popes married and their jobs were hereditary.
We wont even get into the sale of indulgences and the nonsense of charging churches for permission to display relics, without caring how many heads of Mary’s mother were already on show (that was 7!)
NO! FUCK! How many times do I have to tell you that you are “WRONG WRONG WRONG” ‘FUCKING WRONG’
Evidence does not find “SOMETHING NEVER EXISTED.” How in the fuck would you possibly do that? THINK! All you can ever say is “We have found no evidence for the existence of …yet.” SCIENCE DOES NOT STATE CONCLUSIONS. It looks at facts and evidence and builds models. It attempts to explain all the facts and evidence that are observable, measurable, repeatable, and verifiable. When new evidence is introduced, science changes.
Science is a method of inquiry, not a thing. A lack of evidence can be used as a lack of existence when the lack of evidence is significant and verifiable. If this were not the case scientists would have to repeat the same experiments over and over and over again just to see if anything had changed.
Evidence does not support the fact that Jesus never existed unless you exclude poor evidence like, self report, personal testimony, ancient stories, various appeals; appeals to miracles, appeals to an empty tomb, appeals to killing one’s self for truth, etc…
The fact is, "There is no good reason to believe in the existence of Jesus as long as I mean by ‘good’, information that is scientifically sound and can withstand critical inquiry.
That is why I left organized religion at around the age of 19. I was raised in a christian family, but developed the perception that it was more of a social club than a place to find my creator. To me, the church was not enough, I was searching for a much deeper link to my god. Back then I was very spiritual, and my leaving the church was a beginning of a long journey in search of my “god”.
That is basically what I was trying to say. Evidence of any kind, so I wont believe in something which has no evidence.
I believe in things such as love for one and other. Trust in one and other. Things which are here now I can experience for real and know is real. Faith in something can be very blind. I said can be, and didn’t claim directly.
I am fortunate in many ways. The religion I was raised in, the United Church of Canada is definitely not fundamental, the emphasized the positive aspects and did not continually threaten with hell and other crap. IMO it is one of the most liberal christian faiths. So I really did not have to wrestle with the oppressive fear that most encounter when they realize they are atheists.
And with my departure, I did not look back on christianity, I was searching for deeper meaning. For me it was not painful leaving the church.
I faced reality to how much evidence actually exists for a god.
Yes it killed something in me so it hurt some.
So everyday I wake alive I try to enjoy as much as I can as this is probably one run and that is the end. Though we have no evidence there is no heaven, I still doubt there is one no matter if it is true or not. It is a belief and I hope I did not make it sound like a claim.
Watching Lion King 2 Simba’s Pride. Something else later or bed.
I finally left the church when I was conscripted, at 20.
I had been reared Bog Irish Catholic. In my opinion, the most superstitious, pig ignorant, bigoted, hateful and vile sect of a pernicious faith.
After leaving the church, I remained vaguely theist for over 20 years. During that time, I searched for answers catholicism had not provided. I found no answers to any important questions . Nor was there an epiphany. I eventually realised that I was an atheist around 1977.
I remain a long way from quad erat demonstrandum, and still have no certainties. All questions remain open to me.***
*** all but one; the inevitability of my own death.
Might I suggest that you have go at spending less time on what others think of you and more time on what you think of yourself? IMO that is the only opinion which really matters.
I keep telling you OVER AND OVER AND OVER - THERE IS EVIDENCE. YOU JUST DON’T WANT TO HEAR IT.
Faith can be blind??? And love can be blind. And trust can be blind. And hate can be blind. And justice can be blind. And mercy can be blind. And pleasure can be blind. WTF are you on about now???
Well society at large, institutions and people all operate on some level of contract law.
We do it all the time. Understanding it and the various levels of responsibility goes a looonnngg way when you start to understand it. AND your part in it.
If I might butt in here. For me there are no certainties. Only religions talk in certainties and even then they promote belief as fact. It is my position that we are all agnostic atheists. That is, we acknowledge that we cannot ‘know’ but we refuse to ‘believe’ on no evidence.
I too was raised as a Christian, albeit, like David_Killens and unlike boomer47, a soft version of it. Compared to Irish Catholicism, the Church of England is more like a social club or perhaps a tea party. The strange thing is, had I not learned of a Jewish heritage and gone looking for it in my teens, I would probably have remained a typical British Christian, never really thinking about my faith and only going to church for special occasions. As a converted Jew, I was zealous and serious but when I lived in Israel I was surrounded by Jews from all over the world who really weren’t that interested because they had other concerns. That was what began my path out of faith.
My path away from faith started when I tried to strengthen my faith actually. Then after digging quite a lot and finding no real evidence for a god, my faith began to fade. I hit a site which is very scientific about things which said that (NO) there’s no scientific evidence for any god.
I feel in a way like part of me died, but that’s life as I realize what I should have faith in. Love relationships and anything I can feel see and touch. If I can not feel see and touch a thing, then it is probably not real. I use the same philosophy in everything as if there is a god, then he/she it needs to explain why they don’t make it clear in 4,200 religions which it, a (God) is.
If evidence should surface for a god or deity I am opened to the idea, but I doubt it. So I just figure when I die things go back to like before I was ever born.
Conclusion there if there’s a heaven great, if not I feel as though I lose nothing. No nothing, just gone. And I am fine with that. If things go back to the way they were before I was born what do I really lose?
PS.
The cat keeps bugging me, LOL. He’s getting more affectionate and very playful. Anyways back to my Natty Daddy beer, and watching movies. Natty Daddy is like 8% Very strong beer.
My lover has not led me astray though, so at least I feel as though I can trust that. Something I can actually feel see and trust. I wont go on blind faith in something with no evidence. Or if you rather lack thereof. I am trying to learn so give one a break. I am a slow learner.
