I will never understand it

Debate Room
101

You don’t want to go there. That is exactly what helps beliefs change. A good smack down and holding reality in your face is exactly what forces people to admit they are wrong and this leads to change. (I am simply responding to your post. YOUR POST.) I’ll not take sides and to be honest, I completely missed anything Mr. M. said about women. I just haven’t been paying attention. With that said; we don’t always know what is going to help change someone’s mind. But a good smack down is certainly one of the things that can do it.

Calling someone a bigot does work when it is true and you have the facts to back it up. Many times I have pointed specifically to the bigotry in the bible and left Christians mumbling incoherently over things they have never looked at honestly. It may not have pulled them out of their faith, but it will certainly be the last time they try to use a moral argument with me. (I’m thinking of 2 current co-workers who decided to talk morality one day.)

Overall, I am (Once Again) Only responding to ‘your’ assertions. I am not defending N’s position but I am defending his right to make the assertion and as distasteful as the comment may appear, N. seems to feel strongly about a point, and really wants to push that point home. Well… His timing is probably at the most memorable time he could have ever possibly selected.

Yep, a lot of people are going to have a problem with the timing. I fully get it. I’m also absolutely certain N. is aware of it. I think we simply have to agree that we found the post a bit shocking in the midst of this particular thread. I know I have been sitting on my stupid comments, Tin Man has admitted the same. N’s timing just caught us all off balance. In the end, I really think this is the only real complaint… ‘Bad Timing.’ Yet, as I have stated above, "If someone really wants to drive home a point… well; you and I are in complete disagreement. “Kick them when they are down,” I say, “and don’t let them forget.” (My methodology comes from interventions with drug addicts and alcoholics. Never let them escape the wrath of their own stupidity. Grind it in until they hit bottom. And then, grind some more.) This will bring about real change. (I won’t get into what kind of change. Measures that are regarded as punitive have mysterious outcomes at times and they don’t always go as planned. Still, they do foster change. ) Okay, I’m done. I hope you see this in light of ‘What causes change.’ and not as a part of any support for N. or M. It is a response to YOUR post.

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102

Wow! I can’t tell you how wrong this is. It is never important to understand someone to help them. Part of my training as a therapist was to sit with people and have them talk about their problems without talking about them. One of the biggest lies most therapists tell themselves is that they have to understand. Not true at all.

You never know exactly what is going to facilitate change in another person. What is important is that the person understands. Not the therapist. When I ask questions of a client, the questions are not for my understanding though I may frame it that way. They are to walk the client through their own understanding.

We had a saying in my program. "If you think you know what is going on with a client, go lie down and take a nap until the feeling goes away.’ i.e. Don’t make assumptions.

You can most certainly help a person without ever knowing what is going on with them. People are learning machines. They learn from books, books don’t know what is going on with them. They learn from lectures. Lecturers don’t know what is going on with them. They learn from soup can labels. Soup can labels don’t know what is going on with them. The learn by observing others. Others don’t know what is going on with them. You can help others and be completely in the dark as to what is going on with them. That is just a fact.

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103

I can see your point here. Certainly a fair rebuttal. I accept that methodology does work, at times, but I find the risk of pushing someone towards martyrdom of their cause too likely. I think it has a time and a place. I can admit I still have my moments of wanting to throw it in theists faces and kick them in the teeth. I can’t say I have seen any good results using that method.

I don’t think alcoholism is quite comparing apples to apples. A chemical addiction is quite different from a mental addiction or thought pattern. Shaking someone from substance abuse isn’t the same as someone who isn’t self harming. A bigot isn’t harming himself like a substance abuser is. So I wouldn’t treat them both the same. I think approaching thought patterns like that is what reinforces them. Attacking a person with an addiction is different, they are denying the reality of their own physical harm and the potential they are putting other people at risk of physical harm from their behavior.

Attacking what I would consider a nonviolent irritating personality is much like using a hammer to peel a potato. Personally I think it’s the wrong tool for the job, but I am not here to tell you how to peel a potato.

104

I won’t disagree with that, you certainly can help people without trying to understand them. But I don’t accept that a cold sterile approach is the only approach. I stated my opinion, and I accept your criticism of my methodology. It’s certainly not for everyone.

105

I will be split on this. I did think N’s comment was abrupt. My own opinion.

LOL… I have, and I cited 2 such cases. They do not talk morality with me anymore. Perhaps we can attribute it to ‘style’ and not necessarily the message. Things that work for one person, often do not work for another. Currently, I am an educator and a trainer. I teach teachers how to teach. The hardest thing to do is to get people to find their own skills and use them.

That was the analogy. I have thousands of others. Everything from students failing classes, finding a date… It does not matter. There is a simple technique called Reality Socratic Questioning that does just this and for all manner of issues.

RSQ
What do you want? (Listen to BS)
What do you really want (Pin down a specific goal)
What do you do? (Listen to the garbage)
What do you really do? (Listen to specific information; get facts on behavior.)

How is what you are doing getting you what you want? (The only acceptable response here is; 'It’s not."

Here is where confrontation takes place. You say you want this, but you do this. You hold the person’s feet to the fire. You say they are lying about what they want. You point out they are doing very little or nothing to get what they want. If they agree, you go back to the beginning. So what do you want? If they insist it is what they want, you continue,

What are you willing to do to get what you want? (Listen to bullshit.)
What are you really willing to do? (Pin the person down to exact specifications, objectives, and easily accomplished goals.)

I don’t need alcoholism. Pinning people down until there is no wiggle room at all, works. You treat them exactly the same!

Taken care of in Questions number 4, and 5. This is exactly where you call bullshit! Denying is not allowed. This works for alcoholic interventions and students failing classes. It works for husbands whose marriages are falling apart and it works for people feeling depressed. It is a simple and extremely useful “Technique.” That is in quotes because relying on techniques is … well… not very bright. I’m using it as an example.

A student who is not doing his homework is also inflicting physical harm on himself. A husband and wife in a bad situation are also inflicting physical and psychological harm on themselves and others around them. Your differences are not significantly distinct. Harm is harm.

A hammer will peel a potato just fine when the end result is a beautiful swirl of mashed potatoes. Personally, you are certainly entitled to your opinion and I am more than happy to agree to disagree.

106

And certainly not a claim I have made. Simply adding serious doubt to your own claims. There is more than one way to peel a potato after all. Furthermore; I will freely admit that people are different and that what may work for you, may not work for me. What works for me, may not work for you. Everyone needs to play to their own strengths.

107

I didn’t ask for examples. I stated your methods don’t work for me. I apologize for not being a professional psychologist. I’m of average intelligence, a creative, not a scientific dissector of psychology.

Again, I wouldn’t agree with this methodology. This dabbles too much into a god complex for me, assuming you can pin down anyone. That’s a bit omnipotent, which I don’t assume I’m capable of.

108

@Cognostic @SatanicMechanic

Hey, guys. This is a fascinating subject, and I would be interested in chiming in on it. Just not in this thread. Any chance this could get moved to its own thread? I’m actually dealing with a situation right now related to this topic, and would like to hash out some options with some feedback.

Edit to add: Maybe one of the Mods could move the existing related posts to its own thread? Not sure how that works.

109

I don’t find the need for another thread. I can agree to disagree here and stop hijacking this thread.

110

I already requested that. — well… mentioned it.

111

Agreed. I think we have run the gauntlet and seem to be at a resolution.

112

I opened a new thread named : Addiction: this topic carried from other thread

Please discuss this topic in there.

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113

Well, think of it this way @mr.macabre13
we’re sitting around with coffee, smokes (ok, outside) or whatever and we are there for you and listening. And in those quiet moments, off we go on a conversation.

Keep us utd

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114

Thank you, so far there hasn’t been any more news about Isa today. Maybe no news is good news?

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115

Let’s hope that’s the case. By the way, please don’t allow anybody to goad you into a petty and pointless squabble in other threads. It simply ain’t worth it. You have far more important things with which to concern yourself. Save your energy for what really matters right now. I realize you are likely already aware of this, but I just wanted you to hear it from an outside source to hopefully reinforce your resolve. Stay strong.

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116

Thank you for your responses. The latest update that we’ve received from my sister-in-law is good news, for now. Isa got to go home yesterday for a few days until they see how her body reacts to her medication. She has a very long road ahead of her, depending on how much pituitary function she has left. She is completely blind in her right eye, and has very poor eyesight in her left, which the doctors say is permanent(that sucks).
She will eventually go to Boston’s Children’s Hospital so she can be seen by their neurologists and neurosurgeons. Apparently they have more experience with this kind of thing than they do in Salt Lake City.
All of those expenses will be out of pocket for our nephew and his wife, but they’re lucky enough to have access to her family’s money, which is in the millions.
We should all be so lucky.
My wife and kids have all been saying the same thing back and forth to each other, PTL, thank god, all the usual crap.
I haven’t said a single word on the subject, how can you say something like that when she’s basically screwed for the rest of her life? She went from a normal 7 year old little girl to a blind, diabetic, on medication for life situation.
They should be thanking her doctors and nurses, and thanking her grandparents for having access to funds that 95% of us wouldn’t have.

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117

Nothing new to report, the last we heard was she was going home. We haven’t been told anything about what’s in store for her in the near future. We’re just glad she survived, but at what cost?
Only god knows apparently.

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118

The latest update about our niece’s condition is that she’s going back to the hospital Friday morning. She’ll have a procedure done to remove the plugs in her nasal cavity and for the removal of a probe/monitor(?) near her pituitary. My sister-in-law wasn’t very clear about exactly what they’ll be removing, all we know is that she might be able to go home the same day. That’s fucking amazing what our doctors are able to do now, as long as you can afford it.

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119

What a relief for your family.

Now it’ll just be the process of her adapting to any physical limitations. I am very happy that your young niece pulled through.

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120

Thank you, this is the kind of thing you’d see happening to someone else’s family, not your own. Whenever god picks your number, it’s always for a good reason, right?
Fuck religion.

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