God lives in sky above clouds as per Islam

Sorry there is no oxygen.

Not Islamic myself, but maybe consider that Mohammad meant something more metaphorical. It’s not as if the ancients couldn’t see the stars.

Or maybe it is not metaphorical but what those barbaric herders from two thousand years ago believed.

Because their faith, as practiced today, is that their god lives above the heavens.

The Egyptians believed that their sun god, Ra, travelled across the sky every day in his barge. The Greeks had Mount Olympus, the Vikings had their gods playing in the sky.

Islam does have some good points, but like many religions, they cling to destructive policies and fantasy tales.

Did you know that god is a sports car fan? He ordered a Tesla Roadster, and Elon was very happy to send one his way.

A minor correction; some cling to destructive policies----

Islam is no more homogeneous than Christianity. It is as meaningless to refer to Islam in a general sense as it is to refer the same way to Christianity.

To attempt to look at a billion people as a group and claim they are X is at best a bias of lazy thinking, at worst simple bigotry.

Umm, Islam dates from the seventh century c e. Of course much of the Quran was lifted from the Torah, which was first written down around the 7th century bce.

It’s fascinating and bit disconcerting to realise that the cosmology and theology of some major ancient religions were very literal .

I was also surprised to discover that the concept of an afterlife was relatively uncommon. As were sacred books*** . People tended to worship their god(s) out of terror and self interest. Trying to placate/bribe gods was just what people did, to prevent their god(s) from getting shitty and smiting them and to get what they wanted. Their entreaties could be very shallow and selfish, just as they tend to be today.

In ancient religions there was no sacred/profane dichotomy. Still the case with some.

**This is relative of course. There have been thousands of religions, yet very few have ever entered the consciousness of most people.

No I didn’t know that.

Bet you don’t know god’s name. I do; learned the army. No, really. I’ll explain:

You’ve heard of the expression “Jesus H Christ!” ? Jesus’ middle name is Hughie, after his dad.

Soldiers are on a very informal, first name basis with god. They are not reticent about telling him off either. Even did so myself from time to time.

The first time I expressed my umbrage was out bush one time. Went something like this “Fuckin ‘hell Hughie, lay off the fuckin’ rain will ya, my nuts are wet!” *** Of course Hughie ignored me, he always did. Quite possibly because he wasn’t/isn’t real :face_with_monocle:

Thought for the day ;“A day without learning something is a day wasted.” (Tarquin S Shagnasty)

*** An odd discovery. It tended to rain most days when we were on exercise . One knew one was soaked when one’s scrotum got wet.

David Killens,

I wonder if there are any charger stations up there, maybe on The International Space Station? Always a big drawback about electric cars, the chargers are few and far between.:grin:

Also, God had better hope the batteries don’t explode. I wonder what the effects of battery acid would be on non-corporeal beings?:wink:

David Killens,

Oh, and God had really better be careful. I just now see Elon Musk is blowing up more crap on the launch pad. I thought we knew decades ago how hard it would be to land rockets vertically, just from calculations on the chalk board. It wouldn’t be so bad if it were Elon’s own money, but he gets taxdollars for this too.

SpaceX Test Launch Ends in Fiery Explosion, Elon Musk Still Considers It a Win

Welcome to Texas, Elon Musk, Don’t Play Us for Fools

It was a massive win, I give it 9.9 out of 10.

This was a TEST flight, and the mission of a test is to learn what works, and what doesn’t. I watched it as it happened. It appears one of the three Raptor engines failed early in the flight, it kept going, got to altitude (2nd engine possibly failed then), went horizontal and descended like a skydiver, then a few hundred feet up, flipped to a vertical position. The missing engine(s) then reared it’s ugly head, and the rocket impacted the launch pad (exactly where it took off) with too much velocity.

Unlike the incumbent players in the US space industry, SpaceX is using a different development method, of building rough test models, and testing them. This method works, they have built and fielded a re-usable rocket, and this one, the Starship, will most likely be the vessel that brings the first colonists to Mars. In a thousand years it is very likely historians will look back on today and mark it as a seminal event in the progress of mankind. All you do is snigger and say “it blew up”.

“I have not failed. I’ve just found 10,000 ways that won’t work.”
Thomas Edison.


Once, there was an itenerant, old-timey, stomp-and-snort, Hellfire-and-Brimstone preacher who came to my college campus. Both he and the students on the Student Union plaza were going back and forth with taunts and divine lambasts at each other.

I thought it would be fun to go down there and join the peanut gallery.

He was yelling a screed against Rock-‘N’-Roll 'Devil Music," and said: "‘The Stairway to Heaven’ is really ‘The Highway To Hell!!’":innocent::japanese_ogre:

I yelled the AC/DC lyrics back at him: “'Yay! ‘My friends are gonna be there too!’”

He then replied and pointed to me: “Now that young man is one Horny Little Devil!” :smiling_imp: And everybody was booing and laughing at him all at once.

I kept on: “Hey, Preacher! What does the ‘H’ in ‘Jesus H. Christ’ mean?”

He replied: "It stands for ‘HELL!’ which is where you’re going!":fire:

And it went on and on and the proverbial fun time was had by all!:grin::grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes::laughing::sweat_smile::rofl::joy:

Rotten old liar.

MY version is the right one. (sniff)

Besides, there’s no such place as hell. It was invented by the Christian church to control their flock while they continued to sheer them, for the next 2000 years.

The Torah was first written down around 1200 B.C. The earliest surviving manuscripts date from the 7th or 8th century B.C.

I challenge you to read Herodotus and come back with that same opinion. Herodotus would refrain from naming the gods to which he referred and attributed specific feats out of reverence for them. Destruction, defeat, and catastrophe were attributed to their sins and the gods taking vengeance (in most mainstream ancient religions).
The Greeks and Egyptians, Babylonians, Assyrians, etc, worshipped essentially the same gods. Every time Herodotus mentions the gods of someone other than the Greeks, he gives the Greek equivalent and calls them the same god. This was popular.

Ah, no consensus with presuppositional scholars then…

It is widely (obviously not universally) held by biblical scholars that the written Torah was the result of the Babylonian captivity 6th century bce

However, modern scholars assert the composition of the Torah was from several sources, from ca seventh to to fifth centuries bc.

Current scholars tend to reject the Mosaic tradition. A reasonable position, given that recent archaeology has show that Moses and the Exodus are almost certainly myth…

First of all, tha requires a few sources. XD

About what? Perhaps I was unclear.

By 'no sacred/ profane dichotomy" I meant in ancient religions generally, there was no clear line between worship of the gods, magic, and every day life. As far as I’m aware, this not a controversial position. That blurring of the lines still existed at least during Elizabethan England, when Astrology and specific prayers were still uses to complement medical treatment.

My apologies for being unclear.

I could find modern scholars that assert the universe came out of my ass. How about what the authorities of the field have found, which is in total opposition to that? Historiography, man. You can find people that say anything. You have to be able to sift through and find what is factual and what is not.

David Killens,

Rest assured, I’m not laughing. I think it’s sad and maddening. The difference between Elon Musk and Thomas A. Edison is that Edison owned up to his mistakes and eventually learned from them. Edison had to as well.

Edison didn’t have the luxury of a Federal Government that uses $Billions and $Trillions of taxdollars and printed fiat money to bail out airplane companies, auto manufacturers, savings & loans, big banks, investment firms, company payrolls, and every other failing endeavor.

What our Government does in the U.S. is what insurers call creating a moral hazard. It subsidizes crap behavior and that leads to more of it. Musk is one of the more expensive examples and it actually hurts legitimate scientific progress.

Nice try, but it is the story of Exodus that must be proven. Religious testimony is of little use when it comes to objectivity.

But even if you are seeing this tale being disproven, how about Prof. Israel Finkelstein?

"According to "Prof. Israel Finkelstein, a senior researcher at the Department of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University and one of the most prominent scholars in the field of biblical archeology today. “The question of historical accuracy in the story of Exodus has occupied scholars since the beginning of modern research,” says Prof. Finkelstein. “Most have searched for the historical and archaeological evidence in the Late Bronze Age, the 13th century BCE, partly because the story mentions the city of Ramses, and because at the end of that century an Egyptian document referred to a group called ’Israel‘ in Canaan. However, there is no archaeological evidence of the story itself, in either Egypt or Sinai, and what has been perceived as historical evidence from Egyptian sources can be interpreted differently.”

Additionally, the history of Ramses is well documented, and there is no mention of this event.

Please do so.

An ad hominem attack will not do it.

ADDENDUM Had a bit of a think. More correct I think to identify your logical fallacy as 'No True Scotsman". You’re inferring that scholars who disagree with you are ‘not real scholars’ An easy trap to fall into. I do it too, by dismissing presuppositional scholars.
Again I have not stated a position which is controversial, except perhaps with presuppositional apologists. They will reject anything which contradicts dogma.

PS recent scholars I’ve consulted include Dr Bart Ehrman and Dr Richard Carrier. Those blokes provide the standard of scholarship which I seek. Have have no time for the presuppositional scholar or archaeologist who wastes everyone’s time by working to justify personal superstitions rather than simply following the evidence