I have encountered this rationale in religious apologetics before, they use key phrases and words they think will appeal to atheists, it’s a form of an appeal to authority fallacy. Words like science, scientists, logic and atheist are used as rhetoric, in the mistaken belief we won’t challenge the claims they are being invoked to support. It indicates how little such apologists understand of the average atheist’s reasoning process. Put bluntly people who use such rhetoric have no understanding of critical thinking, as they have little use for it, indeed it would be a necessary hurdle to sustaining faith based belief.
I would rule him being bat shit crazy out mind. Centuries of inbreeding certainly took their toll.
It’s extremely likely Sid doesn’t understand the difference between a scientific theory and the word theory. He is using several words purely as rhetoric, it’s common flaw in some religious apologist arguments. He is also likely searching for claims that support the beliefs and ideas he favours using such words, and accepting them, and repeating them here uncritically. I mean if someone doesn’t understand that you can’t be both near death, and dead, how much critical and objective examination do you imagine they’ve subjected other more complex notions to? I’d bet a weeks wages he thinks species evolution is “just a theory” but doesn’t think that Nuclear theory, or Gravity are “just theories”, and I’d bet he wouldn’t recognise the bias in such reasoning even when it is pointed out.
He may think he’s on a learning trajectory, and looking for debate, but sadly all he’s offering is obvious confirmation bias, parroting the same old pseudo science and unevidenced superstition we’ve all seen offered so many times before.
A quick bit of objective Googling, and he’d understand it is impossible according to Physics, but theoretically he could find out what the consequences would be if it ever did stop orbiting the centre of the galaxy, as I keep pointing out, he is parroting arguments uncritically.
Indeed, and while we are weighing their relative probability it might be worth pointing out that we know one of those ideas is possible, in contrast we have no objective evidence the other is, or for souls afterlives or anything supernatural. Occam’s razor is slashing its way through Sid’s claims here.
And our theist friend is attempting to answer a question by appeal to a bigger question. What happens to one’s brain is a medical question. But attempting to inject souls and whatever else is bringing in more complex and unproven concepts such as “souls”.
@NagaMorningstar One big difference between what you believe in and what I believe in is our perspective on science.
I follow the evidence no matter where, how much it may prove me wrong, and how uncomfortable I may get.
You begin with a position and ignore whatever disagrees with your position. Damn the evidence.
For example, there are aquatic fossils high in the Himalayas. Some theists claim this is evidence of the great flood, from Noah. The scientific world can explain those fossils by plate tectonics, the up welling of mountains because of the plate movements. The reason so many theists reject plate tectonics is because it takes at the minimum hundreds of thousands of years and conflicts with the age of the earth as defined by Bishop Ussher. He calculated the date of the Creation to have been nightfall on 22 October 4004 BC. Of course, new earth creationists have clung tenaciously to this and ignore the evidence.
I follow science too and your idea of it making me uncomfortable is misplaced here. I went through that when I became an atheist, which lasted for 15 years. I wanted to pursue the truth no matter what and I got really depressed when I lost my belief in God and it took me a couple years of searching before I fully accepted it and eventually didn’t care anymore if God existed which my friend called apathiesm (apathetic atheism) so you don’t even think about if God exists anymore which is next level beyond regular atheism where it defines part of your identity like on this forum. So there is something to be said about being afraid to question your beliefs because it did shatter my worldview for awhile and I couldn’t function and got bad depression because that is all I could think about.
Empirical Science doesn’t even talk about spirit world so no threat there. There is occult science which you probably know little about. I don’t know much either but I have seen more than enough to know it is real. Govt and elite are involved with it so I don’t know how people think it isn’t real except they’re in denial and completely discount what others have experienced because they haven’t experienced it thenselves. I was same way when I was an atheist so it is understandable to me.
Don’t confuse me for a young earth creationist, I am actually pretty well educated in science. I think genesis story is allegory but has some literal truth too. Like civilization started 6,000 years ago in Sumer, same age as Bible gives and it is same age of gene for blue eyes (made in likeness of God).
I’ve said nothing about the flood and I think the ark is allegory or something to do with aliens or tech if literal. Maybe the flood was just local (in New Testament when it refers to the “world” it only means the Roman world as everywhere else was of little consequence at the time). You could also look at the doggerland flood around that timeframe but I have seen geology people talk about something that could be a world flood with water levels rising dramatically after ice age ended.
You say I ignore evidence but I haven’t. There is no evidence against God because science only covers empirical/physical world. Anyway, whatever occult science government knows i am sure is kept secret except what has already been disclosed. Supernatural involves literal hidden dimensions which is somehow accessed by spirits or tech.
I’m impressed you astral project. Are you leaving your body or just astrally traveling with eyes closed? When you leave body, that’s what might be your soul
Gödel’s proof of God is not the incompleteness theorem (he did more than just that). It is a proof of God like I said, look it up on Wikipedia. Of course people question the axioms like all proofs can be questioned that way.
You’re stretching about atheism. Theism means believing in God and atheism means not believing in God so yes you can become an atheist by no longer believing in Gods…that’s what it means! There is strong and weak atheism, respectively meaning believing there is no God and not having any beliefs in God. After I became atheist eventually I didn’t care anymore and was what I call an apatheist (apathetic about the question of atheism). It is next level atheism when you’ve moved on from it defining your identity like on this forum.
Simulation has some theoretical work behind it, look up nick bostrum’s paper, he has phd in philosophy.
How would I know my experience was of God? This goes back to how you define “God”. My experience matched what is described by the God of the Bible so that is how I know. Bible also says there are many gods with the Bible God being the most high God, like a pantheon or divine council.
Maybe they either didn’t reach the NDE state or just don’t remember it. Another possibility is that not everyone has a soul as Adam and Eve are said to be first people made in God’s likeness (this corresponds to start of civilization like Sumer and maybe for gene for blue eyes being that old). There were other pre existing people not made in God’s likeness like where Cain was exiled to. People that are not Adamic are said to basically be animals in human form so maybe not having a higher soul or if they do they dont have access to this spiritual world. I’ve actually seen a goat person out of corner of my eye, a girl had goat legs, and these types of beings are written about in folklore long ago and all over world like satyrs. I’ve also seen one of my friends have horns like a bull while on LSD haha. Basically we can’t normally see these features and I think this is why Bible says men can be defiled by having sex because you wouldn’t want to know you’re actually having sex with an animal if you could see their true form. Jesus also says he will divide people into goats and sheep. I know it sounds crazy but I’ve seen it myself…some people even show it off like I’ve seen one rock star with a goatee look like a goat. You can also see their eyes are further apart is one sign.
People like to claim that NDE is caused by dying brain but this doesn’t account for shared death experiences, which have been studied by scientists, where the healthy people around the dying person also share in the NDE (I think often the person actually dies so it isn’t “near death” but a “death experience”).
Desert is a big, desolate place there is probably a lot they haven’t found yet. It is maybe irrelevant anyway, there are rabbis that think Moses never existed and are reading the story as allegory but that it did come from God. It is about spiritual experiences that have happened to me and others so for me it is true. I know the supernatural real as I’ve seen so much of it but I under Your lack of belief as I wouldn’t have believed my story either as an atheist because I was closed minded to even the possibility of supernatural existing…I thought it was impossible.
Nonsense, the geological record demonstrates unequivocally that no global flood has ever occurred,
Not very well apparently, if you believe there is any geological evidence for a global flood.
Oh ffs, it doesn’t talk about mermaid or unicorns, that doesn’t remotely suggest they are real, you keep using the same argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacies over and over, even after it is explained to you.
You just did, the geological record is irrefutable evidence that no global flood has ever occurred. You also dismissed @Calilasseia’s explansive posts and the evidence they contained.
No you haven’t, you have heard creationist arguments, no credible geologist would assert this, their reputation would be irreparably tarnished.
And here is another classic argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, there is no evidence against invisible mermaids, does this make them real then?
Utter gibberish, and again not even the pretence of objectively evidencing your claims, it just sounds like delusional paranoia. WHAT OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE CAN YOU DEMONSTRATE FOR ANY DEITY?
I have, as have most others here I imagine, it appears you have not though, so here is a quote from Wikipedia for you:
“Most criticism of Gödel’s proof is aimed at its axioms: as with any proof in any logical system, if the axioms the proof depends on are doubted, then the conclusions can be doubted. It is particularly applicable to Gödel’s proof – because it rests on five axioms, some of which are considered questionable. A proof does not necessitate that the conclusion be correct, but rather that by accepting the axioms, the conclusion follows logically.”
Note emboldened part, Nyarl explained this to you days ago as well, as did others, myself included.
So a bare unevidenced anecdotal claim, again why you persist when people here have explained they don’t base beliefs on unevidenced anecdotal claims is unclear.
Of course it does, and of course dying by definition involves a brain being starved of oxygen.
The conclusions are what is being disputed, not the experience. I think this also has been explained enough times by now. Though of course religious people have a long history of lying blatantly and misrepresenting facts to varying degrees in their eagerness to promote their particular beliefs.
You seem to have ignored my objection to your rainbow claim, this smacks of dishonesty, when you make claims then ignore the responses and run to new claims.
No, that’s a lie, and a clumsy one at that, I dismiss nothing. I do however attach little credence to unevidenced anecdotal claims, especially wherever such claim contradict known scientific facts, laws, theories, or evidence.
I note you have moved on from this lie as well, without the integrity to even acknowledge my response.
Then you think very very wrongly, so called NDE’s are generally cardiac events, where the brain is alive, but being starved of oxygen. You cannot be both near death and dead, brain death is the end, there is no coming back. The experiences of a brain being starved of oxygen don’t evidence anything supernatural, that is pure assumption. At best some of the anecdotal experiences present something as yet inexplicable. The conclusions for anything supernatural are entirely unevidenced, usually the kind of appeals to mystery theists seem to love trotting out, but these of course are argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacies.
There have been decades of research by scientists eager to find evidence of the Exodus myth, they have had to admit that the archaeological evidence demonstrates it to be untrue, and that the Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt in any significant numbers. You can’t claim to “follow science” then present a gaff like that.
How can dying brain account for healthy people around the dying person sharing in the NDE? That doesn’t make sense as the healthy people don’t have dying brains at all and still have the NDE experience along with the dying person.
I’m just one person responding to all these other people who each could have as many desired responses as you so sorry if I didn’t respond. It might be because I didn’t think it was interesting enough to respond or I don’t see that Avenue being fruitful. For the fourth time about the rainbow, I said you don’t even know the context of my rainbow comment, it has nothing to do with whatever you’re saying as far as I can tell.
For people that don’t want to believe in spirit world that I know to be real, maybe it would help if you framed it just in terms of tech with aliens manipulating reality and/our minds with tech to give us these experiences. Then you could at least consider it properly since it is in line with your materialist worldview. Reptilians are in Bible (garden of Eden and god is said to be holy serpent also see John 3:14) and in religions around the world like nagas in Buddhism. They could be using tech from space or a different dimension or hidden underground/underwater bases.
I know our own government has tech that interfaces with our minds. Has anyone else noticed how apps are reading our minds? People are already used to phone listening to our conversations and giving us ads and videos based on that but I’ve seen it read my mind (i also have telepathy with some people) and have talked to others that noticed it too.
I give up, how? It’s your claim this happened not mine, so its for you to properly evidence it, and explain accurately what it means, with sufficient objective evidence to support it all. Unevidenced appeals to mystery, disingenuously phrased as questions, are not evidence of anything.
Or it might be that having made a claim that is demonstrated to be wrong or false, you’d rather move on than acknowledge this. You seem to have boundless capacity for making unevidenced claims, so it’s dubious that time is necessitating this lack of integrity. I’ve seen the tactic used too often sorry. make the effort or stop making such claims.
You claimed you’d seen a rainbow without any rain, no? Since a rainbow is caused by light refraction through airborne mist, they generally appear after rain, so your claim makes no sense.
There are unevidenced claims you mean. Once the brain stem stops functioning the person is dead, and they always stay dead. There has never been any objective evidence of anyone surviving that, let alone coming back to life after rigor mortis has set in, let alone after the corpse has been dead long enough to stink. The biblical gospels are of course pure hearsay, from unknown authors, and nothing contemproary was written about Jesus, the earliest examples date to decades after the events they claim to describe, and the names of the authors are fictional, they were assigned centuries later to lend credence to idea they were written by disciples of Jesus.
You’re not understanding what a shared death experience is vs a near death experience. An NDE is the one that just involves the dying person whereas a shared death experience involves healthy people that are surrounding the dying person and they all have same experience.
Look up dr Raymond moody, a psychiatrist, who has researched shared death experiences. I didn’t just make it up.
I already acknowledged the Moses story might not even be literal so I don’t see your point. Depictions also show a 2nd sphinx but where is it? There was an entire city that was found buried under the sands so I’m sure there are more to find. The sands of time has covered a lot of evidence. Also whoever built the pyramids couldn’t have been mere slaves they would’ve had to be very highly skilled craftsmen. Freud had a theory that Moses story is about pharaoh Akhenaten when he replaced the polytheism of Egyptian pantheon for the monotheism of the sun disc.
As for the rainbow, you’re just arguing a straw man and can’t seem to grasp that there is no contradiction because you already acknowledge rainbows “generally” come after rain which means not always. I was going to ask if youre autistic or something then I saw your avatar is the autistic kid from big bang theory…
By global flood I’m talking about the drastic rise in sea level that happened after the ice age ended. It didn’t cover all land on earth but, if it happened catastrophically like some are saying (like a comet hitting the ice sheet), would’ve flooded the coastlines where 90% of world’s populations would’ve lived
Another unevidenced claim, again so vague as to have no meaning, what was the experience, what objective supports the claim for it, or that it was shared, what conclusions are you making, and what objective evidence supports those conclusions. The lack of understanding here is yours my friend. Since despite multiple explanations that unevidenced anecdotal claims are meaningless, you still persist in presenting them?
My point couldn;t be any clearer, decades of archaeological research by credible scientists who were admit they were hoping to find evidence supporting the biblical narrative has produced nada, the conclusion is inescapable, that the Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt in any significant numbers and the Exodus narrative is just a myth.
You might want to contact the scientists from Israel who have dedicated their lives to searching in the hope of supporting the Exodus narrative, and explain this to them, they’ll likely see the funny side of those claims.
There is ample evidence that this is likely true, though what this rather odd no sequitur has to do with the Exodus narrative being naught but a myth, is unclear?
And I should care because??? Is this is a lesser known namesake, Freud the archaeologist?
No you’re not, as that was not a global flood. Not sure why you’re ignoring this fact, but one more time then, the geological record demonstrates unequivocally that no global flood ever occurred, like the Noah flood myth in the bible for example. Leaving aside the risible logistics, there simply isnlt enough water in the biosphere for such a flood.
