Can any theist answer this?

Debate Room
261

My point was that a regular person can conceive of an intangible future time without empirical evidence quite easily.
You have proven that.
Faith is like that for believers. I was just trying to help the person (s) that had some questions regarding faith relate their experiences with the lack of faith with those who do have faith.
I like history I’m starting to learn about it.
Let me give you an example of my point of view.
The only proof we have that Socrates existed is the works of Plato.
Most people accept his authenticity. Some people do not. Neither opinions take away from the teaching.
What is the value of the information in the text?

We were talking about the fact that a sheep herder could not understand the concept of a germ was talking about space-time and being outside of Earth’s time. A thousand years for a human being might as well be a million. An individual will not be around for it. Anything could happen between now and a thousand years from now that would affect the concept that one conceived. It is less tangible because there’s nothing to equate to outside of our own perception and estimates. In roughly 2500 BC Haley bop collided with Saturn and it’s orbit was changed by 2500 years.
Anything could happen.
There are assurances in the Bible if you believe it that support the concept of faith.
Whether someone believes it or not is personal… But it does not negate that faith is not necessarily tangible but is perceived. Much like you can conceive a thousand years in the future.
I quote the Bible because I see the validity in it. I see the science in it.

I’m happy that you mentioned the Iliad. Homer is another example of a character in history that is disputed but people can still take the information related to his character at face value. People can read it and see it’s worth. Some people dispute Homer’s historicity, but most can still read the works for the value contained in them. Why isn’t this true with the scriptures?
The Iliad and the Odyssey depict battle and bloodshed. It is not discounted because there is Battle and bloodshed. History is full of that.
Those works (the illiad and the Odyssey) are supposed to be mythological renditions of historical events, but the works are still valued.
If Homer was proven without a shadow of a doubt not to be a real personage, it would still be one of my favorite books.

262

The only proof we have that Socrates existed is the works of Plato.
Most people accept his authenticity. Some people do not.

The existence of Socrates is a mundane claim.

The existence of Jesus is not. In fact, extra-ordinary claims are made regarding Jesus. Should Jesus have existed, it in no way validates the claims made in the bible.

So you pick and choose? You see only the good in scripture? You imply “science” where there is none…or observation that would be consistent with the age of the writings.

How many other mythical works do you quote outside the bible? The Koran also holds many “good” passages.

What do you do with the immoral, inhuman, authoritative nature of “the book”… hopefully you cast it aside like most theists.

The teaches of this book, the Bible, has caused more emotional, physical, political damage to society than any other book I can think of (off the top of my head). Hopefully “in learning” from it - you approach it like you would “Mein Kampf” (with a head shake, disgust and a history lesson to avoid repeating)

263

I agree with you about the Quran. The Devas too. Buddha had many similar philosophies to Jesus.
I also agree with you about inept teachers of scripture, philosophy, and proverb.
Judgmental jerks with a limited understanding of the Bible is the predominant reason why it took me so long to come to a place of faith.

Consider the scripture 1 Corinthians 13.

1If I speak in the tongues a of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, b but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

A quite long passage is spent explaining just what love is.
In 1John 4:8, the scriptures tell us that God is love and that anyone who doesn’t know love doesn’t know God.
The holocaust and many other atrocities were done by misguided men in the name of faith.
But the New testament teaches that Jesus said:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21.

Those who do not know love do not know God. That’s what the scriptures explain about atrocities done in the name of faith.
The Bible is full of wars and bloodshed just like every other history.
just like with the Holocaust there’s an opportunity for advancement from a beastial place to a place of empathy and an elevated perspective.
You can see how all that needless blood shed was ghastly. Once upon a Time people thought you were weak if you didn’t kill. The Bible is meant to teach us how messed up we can get. It’s meant to show us the way through it all. At least that’s my perspective.

264

Hahaha… I don’t have any cards. I just meant that I’m regular. Little bit weird but regular.

265

^ mind candy?:grin: Proof of life on Mars.

266

Actually the viewing of “auras” has been tested, many times. In fact: the youngest author to ever publish a peer reviewed medical paper, was published by a 9 year old girl, on this very topic. She found that people who claim to see “auras”, can’t do it while under laboratory controls.

It seems pretty obvious that you’re’re a crackpot; or at the very least incredibly ignorant about the world you live in.

267

:grimacing: except your god commanded the bloodshed and beastial treatment of other humans.

These jerks may have understood the scriptures as written.

Many a bible-believer has to do mind pretzel acrobats to make god fit their idea of what a god should be…

John has no evidence of god. I could say “this cup is god” - look I’m holding “god”. So he says “god is love” - sounds good BUT it is not true.

God of the bible DOES not demonstrate the qualities of love as described in Corinthians.

Now as humans, we’ve come to define actions and qualities as “love”.

268

The concept of the veil is a common theme. Ancient Hindu and Buddhist refer to the veil as Maya or illusion. This wikipedia article is pretty interesting.
In Christianity, the veil also represents a lack of complete understanding. 2 Corinthians 3:15-16

269

Time is relative, and dependent on it’s velocity. A clock sitting at ground level will display a different time than one sitting on a mountain top because the one on the mountain is traveling faster. That is, if you had a clock precise enough to register the incredibly minute amount of time shift. Yes, they experience time at a different rate, but the difference is not even a second every billion years.

Time and space are different. We may be sharing the same time, but our locations, the x,y,z of our location if different. We share different space-time.

270

It seems pretty obvious to me that you have an issue with name calling to get your point across. I’ve explained in numerous places that my understanding of science and astronomy is limited.
I came here to learn because I have found the atheist tend to be less biased and more ready to discuss differences. A lot of the people on this forum seem to have the same philosophy.
I’m not attacking you for what you don’t know. Why are you so interested in attacking me.
I may not have all the figures perfectly memorized yet but I think the concepts that I have are pretty sound. They’re at least worth discussing on a civil level.
I think that there’s some people that would feel the same way on this forum. If you don’t, why do you keep reading my posts?
Just ignore me.
I was really hoping that I could introduce my son to y’all… But if you’re going to be needlessly aggressive I don’t want to put him through that.

271

You said there were male and female ions. You don’t have a clue about you are talking about; you’re just making up shit and posting it. This isn’t your friend’s Facebook page; when you post ridiculously false information here; you will be asked to defend it.

Why should we believe you about god, or the miracles you claim to have seen, the things that are hard for us to verify; when you’re just making shit up that we can easily verify is false?

272

The sun emits positive ions. The sun is considered “masculine” according to mythology. The moon emits negative ions. The moon is considered to be “female” in most mythologies.
Sorry, I wasn’t more clear.
I’m not just posting garbage for the sake of antagonizing or irritating a group of people I am trying to reach out to.
Someone said here: you give what you get.
Have I been aggressive with you in some way I am unaware of?
The people I’ve encountered that actually know more than me, don’t try discourage me from understanding with an unending stream of personal attacks to my intelligence, they try to educate me.

273

I think that you are probably a very compassionate person. Probably more than the average person.
the fact that you didn’t even want to use the word sacrifice to describe the effort that you put into taking care of your children is pretty telling.
Your reasons for being angry at the concept of God being used to do atrocious things is understandable. I feel the same way.

I don’t think you disagree with the commandments. I think you disagree with the way that people honor the principals that comprise them.
Even the way the people in the Bible are portrayed honoring them.
I do also.
You don’t believe people should go crying to hunks of wood believing it can save? neither do I!
You think people should not kill or marauder? Neither do I.

We have our modern jurisdictions to understand how individuals can break laws, and still consider themselves blameless.
We even had a president that helped us understand that an individual can represent a nation and still not speak for them.

Individuals that misrepresent the scriptures are like that for me.

The name they affiliate with represents the current box for my beliefs, but they don’t speak for me.

Does anyone want me to bother asking Josh if he wants to try communicating with y’all?

If he is willing, would you like to be your own peer-reviewed study?

274

They all refer to talking snakes, and magic apples. I’m always baffled when theists quote scripture to me. [quote=“Tia_Thompson, post:246, topic:368”]
A day to God is like a thousand years to us.
[/quote]

I’m sorry, but that’s as meaningless a piece of unevidenced rhetoric as one could espouse.

Not true, and I am not prepared to believe anything based solely on conjecture.

275

Not true, objective evidence validated by the rigorous methodology of science has revealed truth.

I’m dubious, you may want to properly fact check that claim. I’d advise against using the word proof as well.

From your link…

“METEORITE YIELDS EVIDENCE OF PRIMITIVE LIFE ON EARLY MARS”

So even a cursory look at the title shows it’s not proof of life on Mars. I’m sorry but I have found the theistic rationale to be overly fond of ridiculous hyperbole.

276

What do you mean? Did you read the article?

277

The oldest code

The Old Testament isn’t a book of “principals”. It is a book of laws, recorded for god’s chosen people. It is the base of which salvation is required through Jesus. It is quite clear through that written record how god treats his “people”.

I disagree with many of the laws - I abhor the idea of owning a person as a slave: the death penalty for a person who happened to pick up sticks on god’s day of rest: the idea that gods priest could abort a baby based on her husband accusing her of adultery: that same man could have as many wives and sex slaves as he wanted…

It isn’t anger. It’s disgust that somehow this book is to be a moral guidance for me to obtain “knowledge” from.

Yes. There’s this whole “last days” scenario laid out by god (Jesus). Armageddon. For some, the idea of hell.

278

The conversation was in reference to the ability to conceive of a thousand years in the future.

I said that a thousand years was outside of human comprehension.

Someone said they could conceive of a thousand years in the future.

I asked how one could have empirical evidence for a Time that is intangible. Anything could happen between now and a thousand years from now. A meteorite could hit the planet and start life over again with different building blocks 999 years from now.
Half the planet could fly to another planet or a space station and change evolution.
there’s no empirical evidence for a thousand years in the future outside of astronomical data which is also subject to potential change although it’s on a cycle.
The Bible itself is an ancient, peer-reviewed work. There aren’t very many works that have been read as many times or discussed.
Whether you believe it or not it’s something tangible to reference.
My point is we can enter this discussion from a place that is not limited.
If you can conceive of a thousand years in the future, you can conceive of a million.
If you can conceive of a million years in the future. You can conceive of a creative Force that moves things but it cannot be detected by the naked eye. Am I talking about magnetism? no I’m talking about another creative force that was also Gnostic wisdom back in the day. I’m talking about a creative force that can’t be seen that created that and everything else perceived and unperceived.
Everyone alive right now is special. Even the thickest minded of us all can understand concepts that would have put a person of antiquity into a state of shock.
The internet is an amazing tool. We can look at more than double all of the books that were in the library of Alexandria on a device the size of the palm of our hand while we sit on the commode and listen to music.
there’s got to be some way to connect all of this stuff so it’s not so disjointed.

279

I mean that’s the proposed outcome. But there’s also narratives like that of Nineveh. You know Jonah and the whale.
The Ninevites were people that were set for destruction. They were just all doing the wrong thing. You can read up about the Ninevites elsewhere in the Bible and what they were up to. They don’t go into it in the story too deeply.
After Jonah talked to the Ninevites, they felt bad for their actions and stopped for a time.
The “apocalypse” was averted…at least for a little while.
even though the Ninevites returned to the same behavior later and were destroyed, within the Bible they were preserved because they listened to warnings.

280

I was just referencing the ten commandments. I’m sorry that I wasn’t clear. I was referencing the 10 laws that were inscribed on Stone according to the scripture and the framework for the discussion