Theists are pushing the location of god to the unexplored/unexplainable ares of science. History has shown that gods are believed to exist where science can’t reach at those times. e.g. sky, moon, sun. And now we have reached the skies and understand time and space well.
As we uncover the mysteries at sub atomic levels i.e quantum mechanics. I hope that we may be able to prove that God doesn’t “exist outside” space-time. But unfortunately it’s more likely that solving these mysteries will lead to other mysteries which theists will use to justify existence of god.
I hold to the opinion that religion is a valid example of evolution. Primitive man only saw what was within eyesight, the ground, the sky, and imagined the sky was an arch held up by mountains/the ground. Primitive man attempted to explain natural phenomena, and since their understanding of the universe was sparse, they used a lot of the “god of the gaps”, plugging in a deity whenever they could not explain any further.
The ancient Norse explanation for thunder is one good example. Any observer could hear thunder, and it was explained as the gods messing around in the sky. Now we know the scientific explanation, it was static friction, electricity, and plasma creating a sonic wave.
Ancient man belived that their god(s) lived nearby, on a mountain top, or in the sky, or somewhere. But as mankind pushed further and further into the universe, we learned that Mount Olympus was just a mountain. Some religions were exposed, some religions evolved, and told different stories to match the changing perception of this universe.
In today’s climate, science has pushed religion into making more and more desperate excuses, to where it is today, many define their god as the master of hide-and-seek.
But getting back to “existing outside of time and space”, that is a contradiction. If anything exists, time must act on it. And if there is time, it resides in a space.
It has long been my position that religion is virtually universal because it meets important human needs.
–And/or that religion still exists on such vast scale strongly suggests it has an evolutionary value.
There is a subdiscipline of evolutionary biology called ‘Social Evolution’.
Social evolution is a subdiscipline of evolutionary biology that is concerned with social behaviors that have fitness consequences for individuals other than the actor[ citation needed ]. It is also a subdiscipline of sociology that studies evolution of social systems.
Even if, by some as yet un-imagined means, mankind and science could probe and examine every nook and cranny inside and out of reality, there would still be somewhere (inside the ‘clicking’ sound of collapsing wave functions?) that theists could put their gods. Its the universe we live in; lots and lots of hiding places everywhere, kids. But we aren’t talking about a ‘thing’ within a ‘place’ here, we’re are dealing with psychological needs, and as far as that goes I am not really bothered by what they believe, as long as they keep it to themselves, stay right out of politics, and allow everyone, including their own children, to determine their own paths.
I am not a scientist, but I am an internet user and in one minute I found the following on Wikipedia:
“In physics, spacetime is any mathematical model which fuses the three dimensions of space and the one dimension of time into a single four-dimensional manifold.” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime)
This definition should suffice for the current discussion.
You have asked great questions but they don’t answer the OP question.
“What exactly are you imagining this (a place “outside” time/space or an idea of “nothingness”) to be?"
We, as atheists are not making the claim, and the question has been asked for theists to identify and explain this claim.
Its a very difficult subject. It would pay to stay on topic without muddying the original intent of the OP’s question.
No problem Randomhuman. I believe I have answered your first question.
As for your other two questions concerning whether or not time or matter can exist without each other, modern science, in various fields, suggests they are not two separate items, but, following Einstein, two interlinked parts of a physical continuum and as far as I understand it, it appears each cannot exist without the other. But for clarity you might refer to a science based website.
My interpretation is of a three dimensional cosmos, with time as the fourth dimension. For example, if I made an appointment to meet someone at a certain location, that is three dimensions, and if the appointment was a certain time, that combined total is the space/time.
To the best of my understanding, time is integral to the existence of everything. In our universe, if you located the most sparse region, with almost no particles in it, it is still a busy place with photons passing through, the influence of gravity present, and other forces.
If there is no time, there is nothing, in the absolute sense.
This is where the description of a god existing outside of space/time is contradictory. This god would be thinking, acting, and existing in some manner. Therefore time is present.
Since God created the concept of time/space in this universe, it means that God is beyond time/space. Do all of you guys believe in the Big Bang theory, or just the universe beginning in general, or do you believe the universe is infinite?
Which god? There are many thousands from which to choose.
As as far as I’m aware,so far no one [ in recorded history] has been able to prove or disprove the existence of any god , nor anything about such a being. IE such claims are unfalsifiable. (See Russell’s Teapot)
Nor imo can a god be argued into existence as you have just tried to do. As with most atheists of whom I’m aware, I demand empirical evidence and will accept nothing less.
To respond to your claim from a catholic perspective: I was educated (if you’ll forgive the expression) at a Catholic boys school. We were taught that time and space were created by god before anything else. That at the end of days, time and space will again no longer exist. Of course,this simply a claim, no proof is so far possible as far as I’m aware.
PS My first impression seems to have been right; Yet another disingenuous apologist .setting up some kind of claim.
From where I’m sitting, that claim is misleading at the very least. Not disappointing ,merely tedious…
God is not bound by time or space because he is simply beyond time and space. The laws of time do not apply to God. He created it. How can the Creator of time be subject to something He created?
Or how can God who is Eternal and sublime be restricted with these limitations like us humans? To God all time is the same. We humans need the parts of time in our life to separate what we have already done and achieved from things we are yet to achieve. God is beyond these limited things which govern our lives and restrict our beings.