Burning Churches ⛪️ “normal” expression?

Debate Room
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The burning :fire: of churches has disturbed me as has the atrocities of the residential schools (which has finally come to full societal awareness). Even on indigenous land, the idea of destroying those places of worship of people who use it collectively for expression of” belief” disturbs me. Mostly because Canada at one time said “there is no room for you”. It hurts to see the same expression “there is no room for you” in any nation.

For those that react as individuals in a destructive manner, it is always easier to destroy than create. It take no effort. It expresses a vast hatred for people today that had nothing to do with the atrocity, as does taking on the victimhood of the past as a personal identity. Acknowledging history, its wrongs, leaves no group untouched. At the same time, it is not “persecution” to belong to a group that is currently being scrutinized for its institution’s action (or inaction).

There are many past inhumane actions by states and religions that are below the surface. Internment of the Japanese Canadians. The treatment of conscientious objectors during the World Wars in Canada. The forced sterilization of the “mentally retarded” in Canada. The withholding of equality (as in value) of women and LGBTQ and race, in Canada. Our human history is build on many atrocities towards “groups”. Legally today, we have (as a society) moved forward in all these various “human” issues.

There are also inhumane treatment by fellow humans to each other within families. A person may know their perpetrator’s personal story but it does not lessen or excuse acting out in abuse. Understanding the “story” of the person causing you the same harm they underwent in no way improves the relationship. My own father had his story of abuses suffered in a Catholic school. My own father continued his life as a perpetual victim releasing his rage, powerlessness, self-pity and feeling of worthlessness on those he “loved”. He became the “abuser” he hated.
The cycle ends when a person no longer accepts “victimhood” (accepts resilience/strength) and understands that it’s their actions that create their relationships.

As indigenous mourn, I empathize. I cannot imagine though, the direct suffering of the families that experienced such destruction of their family unit and cultural heritage. The death of these children vividly reminded us of the death of a people’s culture and way of being. The nation legalized it. The RCMP enforced it. The churches designed it (“kill the Indian - save the man”) and made it a reality. Regardless of the “intent”, or the historical setting (moral acceptance) - it was a horrible human practise.

There are many emotional responses. All of the emotions are valid. The actions expressed… actions that effect others - this is where responsive, thoughtful care must be taken. AND there is good reason for this. One of my favorite thoughts is to “be careful who you choose as your enemy… for you become just like them”. History can be a tool for perpetual hatred. History can be a tool for better ways of being. History can motivate those that hurt others to make amends and be accountable. History can teach how to heal regardless of failed acknowledgment of harm caused.

Actions speak louder than words. Actions move thoughts and ideas into our physical reality and have a lasting effect. Choose your actions wisely.

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What’s happening and has happened in Canada is truly fucked up. I have nothing but contempt and hatred for all organized religions, and the burning of church’s accomplishes nothing. What happened to all of those children is beyond believing. As a parent and a grandparent, the thought of any “religious” organization treating anyone’s children this horribly for as long as they did should be front page news everywhere, but it isn’t. I wonder why?
In a perfect, or even just slightly better world, all of the world’s churches would be seized and used for something other than brainwashing the minds of those too stupid to think for themselves.

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Interesting claim. Approximately 85% of the world’s population has some kind of religious belief. Are you saying they are all too stupid to think? What about too young to be capable of critical thinking?

For most people, religious belief is simply a matter of birth. Children tend to learn their religious beliefs and world view at first from parents, then by school. World view certainly , religion perhaps. This happens before the age of about 7. Children’s brains are like sponges. They uncritically accept anything an adult tells them, no matter how absurd or how hateful.

That the much greater majority of adults believe in some form of religion suggests that people generally never seriously question their religious beliefs nor their world views.

As far as burning churches. That gives me a sick feeling. The behaviour of desperately fearful and hateful people. Imo, the intention is to destroy the very idea of a specific religion or all religion.

Imo people who burn churches [or books] will eventually burn people with the same fervour and certitude.

There is spiffo doco on Netflix “How to Become A Tyrrant” I think it’s relevant to this discussion.

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If I had my way, churces would have to pay tax. The priestly caste would have to find a real job.

Churches would not be permitted to own property or to accumulate wealth, including benefiting from wills.

Each church and church school would belong to the community and be administered by an independent council. When the church and or school was no longer needed, the buildings would be demolished and the land sold. Proceeds would go the community who paid for them. If there is no longer a community of believers, proceeds would go to the state. It would be administered by an independent body in each state, not politicians .

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Well you know… 50% of the world population, has an IQ below 100.

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As a Canadian I am both shamed and proud. Shamed because of this horrible smear on our history for such wanton ignorance and callous disregard for human life, and proud that we are starting to take ownership of this and holding a conversation.

In the past there have been numerous horror stories, and generally they were disregarded. Only now, with hard concrete evidence are the stories starting to be believed and acted on.

But two wrongs do not make a right, and as Whitefire pointed out, reciprocal violence against the churches is morally wrong.

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I am not sure “morally wrong” is the correct label. Was the French Revolution “Morally wrong”? The wholesale beheading of the Aristos was necessary to cleanse society of what had become unbearable. Was it Morally wrong to burn the chateaus? To raid the Bastille?

Was it morally wrong for “christian mobs” to burn people that were a perceived threat to their sustenance?

Revenge is a powerful motivator when you see your nationhood destroyed in front of your eyes, they practised on the Scots, 4 million dispossessed, their language banned, their national identity suppressed. Oh yes, you will not hear too much but there were revenge killings and burnings in the 18th and nineteenth centuries as there was in Ireland after 1926.

3 churches is a small price to pay for the deliberate murder of children and the suppression of entire cultures. Not one life was lost in those churches, those monuments to unspeakable behaviour. Only the wood and stone monuments to as much cruelty and misogyny and racism as a statue of Lee or Jackson.

I think that shows an amazing restraint for humans. If boot were on other foot you would see the unwashed religious mobs rooting the innocents out of homes and shops and killing them…they have a track record of that behaviour.

Canadians showed remarkable restraint in only burning some underused symbols of persecution, lies and institutional murder. Good on 'em.

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I agree. I should have expressed my disgust in a more precise manner. But changes are happening, there is a strong push by a great number to change street names and institutions that we named after those who were complicit in this human tragedy.

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For the record, I do not advocate such extreme measures. I would rather they just quitetly remove the statue in the middle of the night.

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No, I didn’t know. So what? That doesn’t necessarily mean they are stupid.

I’m wary of using IQ test as the sole measure of intelligence. I’m not convinced IQ tests measure what they claim to measure.

"Kids who score higher on IQ tests will, on average, go on to do better in conventional measures of success in life: academic achievement, economic success, even greater health, and longevity. Is that because they are more intelligent? Not necessarily. New research concludes that IQ scores are partly a measure of how motivated a child is to do well on the test. And harnessing that motivation might be as important to later success as so-called native intelligence. "

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2011/04/what-does-iq-really-measure

A friend once opined to me that “IQ tests measure how good a person is at doing IQ tests” . Although I think this is perhaps a smidge simplistic, I don’t any more so than claiming IQ tests in themselves are an accurate way of measuring innate intelligence.

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Politics is amoral by its nature. There are two broad principles; the ends justify the means and don’t get caught.

I’ve read of the horror expressed at the evil of the Bolshevics’ murder of the Romanov royal family. In the context of the situation, that’s what I would do, but probably much sooner. That action was imo a political imperative . Without it a major counter revolution could have gone on for decades.

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Homo sapiens have always been suckers for rituals and symbolic acts. While I remain sensitive to the feelings of those people who have worshipped in those churches, I still feel that the burning of a few wooden buildings to the ground is a small insignificant reaction to the horror of what happened to the hundreds, thousands (?) perhaps more, indigenous children forced to endure a cultural as well as physical genocide at the hands of ignorant, overly zealous and as far as we know nameless, servants of gods.

The institutionalised deaths of all those native children is a monstrous crime and the burning down of those churches would have partially satisfied the emotional needs of some of those personally involved in the terrible matter.
I have personally shared the emotional trauma of those Aboriginals who were taken from their families in Australia. It was all supposedly for the greater good and only server the greater suffering.

How else to react now as the awful truth of this latest travesty is revealed? Is there even hope for suitable justice or punishment now? As this goes back to the 60s and maybe the 70s are any perpetrators still alive to answer? A lot of the paedophile priests in Australia died of old age before the Royal Commission even got underway. In any case formal Westminister-style legal retribution is a cold, uneven and widely unsatisfying means for addressing, much less acknowledging past crimes. I am not satisfied that young children arent still being raped by catholic priests and getting shielded by their church. No-one talks about it much anymore, its out of public sight, but I’d guarantee its still happening.

The dreadful treatment of indigenous children all over the world is a matter of history. While no actual perpetrators have been singled out to date in this Canadian tragedy there remains only the faceless monolithic edifices called churches whose genocidal orders these people served. It will take a lot of time to investigate who is involved, complicit or guilty. Emotions are running high. There is need for release. For all of us.

Ensuring that no-one is harmed or killed, I recommend burning down a few more churches. Include a cathedral for effect. If there is no tangible justice to be found for these children, the charred remains of church buildings with legal restraints against rebuilding or clearing the debris for a decade or so, and suitable signage explaining these usual monuments, would at least serve as a pointed public demonstration to all churches, and governments, and anyone who sees these public ruins, of the combined disgust and condemnation of the rest of our society for the past adoption of their cruel treatments for those in their care in the name of their gods. These churches and their teachings have been responsible for terrible outcomes. It would be fitting retribution that these crimes be kept in the public mind rather than to let them be swept out of view. Dachau still stands and is never far from mind.
I am aware that churches have done good works on the whole and I would not want to punish those whose ideals are not in question, but this is as bad a crime as any and the scope of it demands some constant reminder that it should never happen again.
Someone will suggest that a statue or two might be erected as memorials but that would only serve to identify the victims and to detract from the identity of those most responsible in the mindless service of their gods for these crimes against humanity.

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It’s interesting. Edmonton city council decided to remove a mural that depicted a founder of the residential schools located in a downtown public transit hub. It caused “opinions”, mine of which was “to let the fucker be forgotten - who remembers the name of the mayor of the province’s Premier at that time” ??? Anyway - the city was proactive and responded quickly to public knowledge and justified feelings of repulsion of this “historical” civilizing of Canada.

Myself? A symbol in the form of a statue is different than a place of worship. Many a statue has been destroyed (historical captured photos) and they rightly should be.

These statues coulda-shoulda been removed by the religious schools themselves (at the latest in 2013 when there were “financial Settlements” and acknowledgements and apologies. But the Catholic Church defaulted on its 23 million (paid only two million) and the apology was empty without action. The schools may have changed “legally” but the historical background was one of pride in their “conversations and contributions to Canada”. Their “pride” is publicly and forcefully shamed. The honor of their residential founders pissed on.

This speaks to humans getting in touch with being humane. Something the churches have controlled for a longgggg time - morally dictating treatment of humans.

On indigenous lands, some use the churches for worship; their exercise of belief. Had the council come to an agreement (through concensus or vote) that these places were not welcome on their land - not all nations accept all forms of worship for various reasons (ie Germany and Scientology)… I believe Canadians would understand the restriction of certain “places of worship” on their lands. Especially if their approach is to renew their own cultures.

There are two steps I would advocate for towards healing. One :point_up:t2: would be museums devoted to the physical and cultural genocide that was attempted upon the First Nation peoples. A place where one can see the mapped boundaries of the various tribes, learn of the selling of the lands by Hudson’s bay…how the government, once the lands were purchased, “protected their investments” by building Forts to ensure safety of settlers. The settlers often were folks who left their own countries because of persecution (religious) and poverty.

As the settled areas became “stronger”, politically they joined for an alliance under Federal laws. Around this time, the Churches were lobbying for legalized “conversion”. As white, male, Christian folk led the way for a new nation and building - it was an easy lobby. Also, a “better” alternative to straight out “genocide”. Historically they had their own past knowledge to base this approach to “peaceful” relations with a people’s (various nations) that they had “colonized”. For them, perhaps, cultural genocide was the “better” choice… although it has been evidenced beyond doubt that abuse, neglect and death ran rampant with the conversion “process”.

It is the stories that need to be preserved of this “process”. The remembrance of the destruction of families. The inhumane treatment of children. It is remembering how inhumane actions and behaviours effect humans that move humans towards better societies. Our ability to empathize and co-operate with others that maintain and create peace. Our nations’ healing process is to be listened to (the stories were being told previously), acknowledged (not a simple sorry, eh) and those responsible, held accountable. If they will not pay :moneybag: (think of legal compensation for pain and suffering) at the very least, their honoured founders removed from public sight…after all, they hid the bodies of their victims.

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Hear fucking hear, and make sure the Church has to pay the land tax…

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…to which the reaction of current day Christians, who had nothing to do with past church policies (the laymen) will have no place to worship - huddle together with outcries of “persecution” and feed the far-right their conspiraturd reasoning of how this is just a play by “them” to take over via socialist, anti-religious means. Perpetual hatred and fear.

I prefer separate museums of factual information and a shaming of those who identify themselves with religious practices which are inhumane, via knowledge.

This will not reach all. Today we still contend with holocaust deniers and flat-earthers, HOWEVER as a society, these extreme views are ridiculed.

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I use to do a lot of bushwalking.
I once came across a small neglected monument erected out in the middle of bloody nowhere that commemorated a sad tawdry incident in the early 1900s sometime. It involved a couple of miners, and a couple of state police who happened upon the miners who had set up a small dig (ie a narrow and very deep hole nearby, down which they lowered themselves to remove whatever ore it was they were after). The miners did not have a permit, they protested they were so far removed from civilization that the issue of a licence could hardly matter, and if they argued they actually struck it rich they would then have the funds to pay the licence. But reason and cool heads did not prevail and at the end of the affair two miners were shot dead and a policeman wounded. Someone erected this little monument to mark the sad outcome and not long after it happened by the look of it.
I tried researching the event but it was before computers and the internet and my only resource was the microfiche newspapers of the State Library but my limited visits there produced nothing more on the matter. But the little monument, a plaque explaining the story and a small etched drawing depicting the police and miners arguing around the hole in the ground was there marking history. Without it I might have just tramped on by or stopped only to look at the view.

I agree with the idea of museums commemorating the less than pleasant things we as groups mangage to bugger up, but they get unpleasant reputations and people avoid going to such places where sad and bad stories are hidden away from all those who lack the basic intellectual curiosity of going to museums. I dare say most people stop attending them after their schools no longer take them there.
But a permanently maintained derelict burnt out church in full view with bold signage explaining the less than humane activities enacted by the past members of that church is open and viewable and a constant reminder.

All these ‘historical’ crimes rarely have living perpetrators. Even the perpetrators themselves might have believed they were acting in good faith except when they went nuts and began beating and raping and neglecting to the point of endangering the lives of their charges.
I would like to believe many suffered tremendous guilt for their actions, but they did nothing to stop it or themselves. If they had statues might have been erected to their memory. Instead, the abusers of indigenous children of Canada and of Australia, as well as pedophile priests everywhere, concealed their activities, all to save the reputation of their respective faiths and churches.

And now later generations of innocent worshippers are left to deal with the fallout. And so they should. Why should they be allowed to continue believing their faiths are faultless, their predecessors blameless, their faith without error, when the victims suffered without relief for most of their lives and in many cases still do? No one can blame the living for the wickedness of the dead, (with the exception of one particular god who carries the sins of fathers to the third generation of his seed) but the living need to know what wickedness has been done on behalf of their faith if just to ensure it really never happens again.

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And the damage is already done to the church. It is a good idea… perhaps :thinking: the Catholic and Anglican places of worship may be visual reminders of a living Auschwitz and Dachau spiritual superiority enacted on a people of lesser value.

7 “schools”…1500 uncovered victims.
130 “schools” still to be searched.

This was North American policy.

“There’s no official data on how many boarding schools operated in the U.S., how many children were taken to them, or how many never came home. NABS has conducted its own investigation and estimates there were 367 boarding schools in the U.S. — more than double the 139 residential schools in Canada.”

“Our” churches are still resisting and grappling about the release of records.

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March 13, 1955

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In Canada that last residential school closed in 1997.

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What happened is a horrible travesty.

I am a white male, I could easily mix into a KKK meeting because of my physical appearance. But my life experiences and association with those very close to me, this horror is incredibly close to home.

My wife is 100% indigenous, First Nations. She was born at a location and time where she would have torn away from her birth parents and placed in one of those schools. At that time the parents had little options, but one was to place the child up for adoption, in the hope they would be adopted by a loving family and have a much better life than in a school. That is what happened to her. But the adoption process carries it’s own problems, most adopted children carry the emotional scars and trauma believing they were never loved by their birth parents.

My wife is also close friends with a few people who did endure and suffer those schools, their accounts were first hand.

One story is that a nun carried a stick, constantly using it to press against a cheekbone to force the child to look in the direction they desired. it was not soft and loving, it was harsh and striking.

Another story is that a brother and sister (the account is directly from the sister) were placed in the same school, but they were not allowed to even look at each other. One day that little 8 year old boy picked up a pine cone, and when they were assembled to march back into the school after being allowed inside, the priest noticed this child holding something.

That man of god punched this little child squarely in the face with full force, at least breaking his nose. Blood everywhere, re-arraigned face. he was taken away and never seen again.

Yea, I’m more than upset. I am opening up my personal life to inform members of this forum on the true nature of what happened in these schools run by christians, predominantly roman catholics.

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:face_vomiting:

ALL those “good” persons, way baaackkkkk when.

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Deceiving the Public | Holocaust Encyclopedia (ushmm.org)

hahaha - just waiting in anticipation for Cranks to respond. BUT, the point being… propaganda. A useful tool used to deceive the masses, thus accepting policy and rejecting “contrary accounts”. Also, the media in Canada was not giving “contrary accounts” to the legal machine in place via good god-fearing people. IN FACT, the evidences given to Canadians was “all was well and beneficial”. Listen to the wording in the Residential School video. The images (subtle…Dr. at first looks like he’s removing lice)…etc.

Same shit used on populations. Different pile. To not learn from these techniques is the modern-day travesty.

I mean, seriously - does the photo above look like these kids are being “harmed” in any way? Didn’t the native kids look happy, healthy and just like good clean christian kids - no “harm” in that!

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