HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA … It’s self evident Ratty has lost his mind! If we can use the plea to 'self evidence’as a cornerstone, there are no fucking limits at all!
I am dull. I am “touched in the head”. And my short term memory is weak. But I am sure of what I know and it’s not necessarily my fault that the wording of Sheldon’s posts get misinterpreted. I should be “working” but I will dig up one post of Sheldon’s which shows he’s being evasive.
Okay. Maybe we live in a matrix where even though I can exert a very strong grip on my penis - it is quite possible that my penis is an illusion. Correct? Is that your point?
I have a “penis” because “I have a body and am a virile man” is not a subjective faith based claims.
“When I touch my penis the actual sensation is a consequence of conditions occurring in my brain - ie. touch consciousness in the area of the brain that processes “touch””
… this is not a faith based claim.
Unless you believe that we are all brains in vats, then these are self evident claims open to simple observation. Xoxox
What the fuck does a post from Sheldon have to do with whether or not those are your “simple premises”? Take your damn pills.
Ratty … we keep telling you that you have a tail, not a penis. You were born a little girl and you have been pretending your tail is a penis since day one. Please stop!
He’s claiming they’re “faith based”. I find that extremely fucking irascible.
So I’m spelling it out for him. He needs to be spoon fed. But he’s a fussy baby who doesn’t want mamas milk.
Let me make it easier for you @rat_spit. You tell us what position Sheldon has taken. He’s explained it enough times now. You’re walking a tightrope here; make sure you do a good job.
HERE IS A HINT RATTY: “Sheldon has taken the logical and reasonable position” and you are arguing for unfounded, baseless, inane, woo woo.
Hope that Helps!
He objects to Nirodha Samapatti and demands objective evidence for its existence. He objects to “the cessation of feeling and perception” as I have called it a waking state in which body and mind are transcended.
Because I can not offer him objective evidence anymore than I can prove with objective evidence that my earliest memory is of a mobile in my baby crib - I am offering him a logical explanation based on objective facts.
Please don’t ban me. I have to go to sleep now.
You posted an obvious lie, it required no comment.
On the contrary, I gave no comment at all, your lie required none.
So you knew I hadn’t asked for objective evidence for that claim, but lied that I had, quelled surprise. How does your lie misrepresenting what I’ve posted remotely demonstrate objective evidence for entirely different claims?
It’s not a game, and it’s only you who ignores honest debate here, not me.
Objective evidence please.
I know that our brains interpret information from our senses, what has this to do with your earlier woo woo claims. Have you actually forgotten what you claimed?
Nope Sheldon hasn’t asked for objective evidence for these claims, just the woo woo ones you made earlier.
Nyarl recognised that you lied about what I’d said again, and is asking you if your lie was a deliberate attempt to troll.
How is his behaviour not “trolling”; “not frustrating”; not “deliberately evasive and dishonest”
Please quote a post of mine being dishonest or evasive? With an explanation of what is dishonest and evasive about it?
I find you extremely irascible, and you are assigning my demand for objective evidence to the wrong fucking claims.
The only question is whether it’s deliberate or not?
Not intentional. I assumed you were asking for evidence of my entire argument. So, I started from the most basic.
All of my premises lead to my conclusions. There is no faith required. Yes, senses exist. So too do sense objects. And so too does sense-consciousness.
Perhaps instead of accusing me of perjury or what have you - you could have simply explained at the start that I was not addressing the right claims.
This tedious discussion could have ended sooner. If you don’t want to believe me it’s no hair off of my rat scrotum.
It is not my intention to establish the existence of Nirodha Samapatti and I am tired of proving the claim that I attained it 12 years ago. I am also disillusioned with the idea that any one here could muster the single mince of faith required to follow the Noble Eightfold Path in order to discover it for them selves.
Unlike theists who come here telling you that you’re life will improve once you get to know God; the Buddhist path of jhana exists in order to face physical and mental pain without the use of drugs or operations or physical therapy.
But don’t take my word for it. The Buddha said:
"So, as I said, Kalamas: ‘Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, “This contemplative is our teacher.” When you know for yourselves that, “These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering” — then you should abandon them.’ Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.
"Now, Kalamas, don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness’ — then you should enter & remain in them.”
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html
So to whatever degree your meditative practice brings you freedom from stress or physical pain or mental pain - I say do whatever it is you can.
I cannot provide “objective evidence” that the extinguishing of sense-consciousness in a waking state produces a transcendence of body and mind, but I can provide you with this:
“When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications.”[1]
“Very good, venerable sir.” And, delighting in and approving of Ven. Kamabhu’s answer, Citta asked him a further question: “What is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?”
“In the case of a monk who has died & passed away, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is totally ended, his heat is dissipated, and his faculties are shut down. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is not ended, his heat is not dissipated, and his faculties are bright & clear. This is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling.”[[2]]
(Kamabhu Sutta: With Kamabhu (2))
With that said: I rest my case. Buddhism is a religion for Atheists. Buddhism is a religion for anyone looking to escape the suffering of the rounds of birth and rebirth.
I don’t believe you, evidence this claim.
Using my clairvoyance to anticipate your duplicity no doubt.
I don’t believe any claims for which no objective evidence can be demonstrated, and I’d have thought given the name of the forum that could have been anticipated.
Then you can consider this thread a blinding success.
Proving? Not remotely I’m afraid.
I thought you said no faith is required? Why would anyone here want to use the vapid blind bias of faith?
I think you’ll find that recovering addicts represent a large demographic among the faithful of various religions. It’s a crutch, a placebo they seem to find useful in battling addiction.
Why would I care what he said if it can’t be objectively validated? I don’t care what people claim Jesus said or Mohamed either. For all the guff assigned them I’ve no reason to believe a word they said is valid without sufficient objective evidence. They pissed on the ground the same as every other human.
Then I shall withhold belief until someone can.
No it isn’t, though for some it is an atheistic religion. Those are two very different claims.
I don’t believe in reincarnation, so unless you can evidence the claim objectively, it’s as meaningless to me as all other woo woo superstitions.
I can’t. Read the message of the Buddha to the Kalamas. We don’t go by logical conjecture.
Drawing the whole thing out again, I can see. Dry humping my leg with your intellectual one up man ship? Even in defeat you won’t let me be.
If I claimed that my earliest childhood memory was of a mobile wheel in my baby crib, under what circumstances would you believe me?
Exactly why I’m tired. It can’t be shown by inference or logical conjecture.
And what do you recommend instead, Shelly? A healthy dose of skepticism?
I know someone who could forcefully put you into Nirodha Samapatti - that would convince you, would it not? Would you like to meet my companion?
What’s your take on “past life regression therapy”?
Then I shall have to continue to withhold belief.
That depends, are you going to claim the memory or its recall are in anyway evidence of woo woo powers you claim to have mastered?
Then why claim you were proving it?
Wow, even you must have heard those goal posts moving?
How would I know, it’s your claim and belief. Isn’t it just as likely I’ll experience something no one can objectively explain?
Have its claims been objectively evidenced? I’m not seeing anything about it on any major news network, and the scientific world seem suitably dubious.
Sounds like woo woo to me. But by all means present your objective evidence.
As I said, I am disillusioned at the lack of faith it takes for you to embark on a Buddhist type of meditation.
Whereas you readily adopt breath meditation from your Aikido training, you outright dismiss the teachings of the Buddha? How do you know they don’t work, if you haven’t tried them?
No. It’s just a very vivid memory. I assume I recall it using long term memory.
If you did and you could describe it in simple terms, I would take you at your word. I would give you the benefit of the doubt. At least as far as saying you experienced it - not that I necessarily could or would or should.
I’m no expert in the field. But if it’s woo woo. Then so be it.
What about astral travel?
You are not offering objective explanations. You are wallowing in woo woo. I have given you objective explanations… "Simple Brain States, and an excessively overly active imagination fueled by Buddhist bullshit.
Ratty, ratty…ratty. Tsk tsk tsk.
You’re a funny guy. Whatever a person chooses to believe or not believe is up to them and what they determine is sufficient evidence for them to be “convinced”. HOWEVER this same standard for evidence should be the measurement in their lives for all claims - otherwise its hypocrisy and “special pleading”.
Like the bible is the “claim” not the evidence - the words you quoted are the “claim” (post 334), not the evidence.
Like I mentioned before, my one kid enjoys meditation for his mental health - but he’s not under any illusions or filling what he doesn’t know with “supernatural” explanations. He also has a goal of being an anesthesiologist - 
mostly because he wants to assist the “Great Sandman” sprinkle his dust and put people to sleep… 
. Oops…injected supernatural into “what we don’t know”….
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