I get that one of the reasons to move away from faith is to escape organization of religion, but we have been ignoring the ways political power can be gained from the religious playbooks. It’s about time we start beating religious organizations and movements at their own game.
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I think this is rare, if it happens at all.
Who is “we”?
Political power in which country? What country do you live in?
What do you mean? Beat them at what? To what end?
‘We’ are apostates, atheists and agnostics (AAA).
Political power must be gained internationally, any DEMOCRACY that hosts apostates of any religion should have AAAs trying to consolidate and influence the political parties of that nation to consider the demands of its AAA population.
As to what end, to the end that any point anyone demands the harm of any apostates anywhere there is political and economic retaliation that is harsh enough to discourage them.
If we can go beyond it, then the spread of democracy in all non-democratic (most religious) states and the promotion of democratic and scientific thought. Think of it as Evangelism or Dawa for freedom of thought, expression and democracy. The AAAs almost universally stand for these values but we are not as assertive as we should be.
Why I say ‘beat them at their own game’ is because there is a lot to be learned by the way the Delhi Sultanate and Mughals spread Islam in India, apart from the raping and killing, the shrewdness by which to entice diplomats to one’s side is very well documented by most evangelist religious conquests, we should learn from them and apply them to consolidate political strength. We should be better at doing it since we won’t be doing any beheadings.
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Thank you for the clarification.
There are secular groups already that promote what I think you’re talking about…both in individual countries and international organizations. Not all of them call themselves, as you would say “AAA”, nor do they often refer to themselves as secular. However, these groups do not require or promote religiosity in their membership.
If you’re interested in becoming or increasing your activism, it would make sense to support one of the already existing organizations.
Many folks who identify as “AAA” are either not interested in political activism or would be in grave danger if they participate in it.
From everything I have been following it has proven very ineffective. The groups you are possibly referring to are being shunned by the leftists, the democracies that are muslim majority and non-democracies. Donating isn’t enough. Think about it, the political position of ex-muslims is such that they have to hide their identity, looking for kindness doesn’t net you jack shit, you need to display strength and influence and I think the affluent non-religious in the world are not doing enough to try and influence policy, the strength in numbers that is growing among the AAAs is going ignored because there is no clear consolidation and yes, clear consolidation requires clear identity as well.
Interesting. You’ve piqued my interest with that one statement. Taking out the church system in the South (USA) would be a wonderful start. How would we go about that?
I am afraid I am better versed in Islamic evangelism and while Christianity had an almost identical trajectory of spread throughout its history, it has a 580-something-year head start on Islam. Thus “taking it out” as in eliminating it as an ideology cannot be done, not inorganically anyway. In Christianity you have to wait for the people to leave it and since they don’t hang people for that or completely cut off access to information that promotes reason, it’s a waiting game. In the Islamic world and India, a very strategic plan laid out in the Hadith is being carried out by the ‘Caliphatists’ (delusional nutjobs that want to bring back the caliphate). If you look at the history of the Khilafah movement by mass murderers like Jinnah and Suhrawardy in the Indian subcontinent you will understand what I’m talking about. Christians have completely moved on from Feudalism, but Caliphatists haven’t. Spreading democracy and patriotic values into the hearts and minds of everyone so they stop trying to topple democracies is the primary way to deal with this and even though there are a ton of nutjob Christians in the South (I am moving to San Antonio in January so wish me luck) they seem to think that democracy is their invention so they’re not the biggest threat. To deal with Caliphatists policies have to be established where people who do not believe in democracies lose their citizenships within democracies. No more breeding to gain a majority and toppling the democratic government. You’d think this is a conspiracy but Christians, Muslims and the ultra-orthodox Jewish, do their worst to keep women at home to use them as breeding machines precisely because of this. Primarily political leadership that acknowledges and caters to the AAA’s agendas must be sought out/established in democratic states/governments but even before that a united AAA must be formed that identifies itself as such and sets thought out strategies and agendas for itself.
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NO! You are confused. Moving away from “Faith” has nothing to do with moving away from a religious organization. “FAITH” is not a path to truth. “FAITH” is not based on reason. “FAITH” is what people use when they do not have evidence. The reason to move away from 'FAITH" is to give up on aberrant, absurd, crazy, foolish, incoherent, and irrational beliefs.
Stop and think. Can you name any world religion that does not require ‘FAITH’ at it’s core? (Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shamanism, Taoism, Zorastrianism, Chinese Folk Religions, Confucianism, and the rest.) Can you any social or political movement that does not require faith to be a blind follower of that movement? “FAITH” is the end of rationality.
You do not have to give up your religion to give up on faith. You just have to give up on the stupid shit your religious leaders tell you. This same idea applies to our political leaders. We do not need faith when we have rational thinking.
Does this mean “Having faith in atheism?” I completely disagree. At the bare minimum most Athiets try to be rational. We have certainly seen the zealots on this site; they just don’t last very long. Their inane assertions are met with the same standards applied to the theists that visit us. These ‘FAITH’ based atheists generally run away from the site with their tails between their legs. We don’t need to beat Christians at their own game. There is a new game in town, and it is called, ‘Being Rational.’
I think you are confusing my statements with that of faith based religious organizations. First off, I said ONE of the reasons people move away from faith is to escape organized religion, which was the case for me. I distanced myself from the organization of Islamic ideology because it was undeniably bad for society. The reason I said that is specifically because of your second statement, which is conflating organization with faith based religious conformity. AAAs need to stop doing this, we have to take the organization without the faith. As for rationality, we are still thinking in terms of individual rationality and not one as a group. The biggest weakness of AAAs is the lack of show of strength in numbers. Individual AAAs are ganged up and beaten for having reasonable criticisms just because they appear outnumbered. Are we outnumbered? Are there more Jihadis out there than AAAs? Then how is it that the Jihadis and the religious extremists look so much bigger than their actual numbers? Its strategy, it’s narrative and political savvy. Stop saying we’re more rational and looking down on everything the other side is doing, a clever competitor looks at the opponent and learns what they are doing right. As for “faith” (or whatever you want to call it) based atheism you are accusing me of, it is mostly the AAAs who have to hide their opinions and keep to themselves despite being in the correct position because people like you cannot get off their high horse, keep thinking they will be handed things because they are simply rational and then when confronted with any kind of opposition to tangible changes that would improve society find themselves completely powerless. Nobody gives you shit just because you are right, not even in democratic societies. You yourself have probably not seen unity without faith, be it religious or Marxist, that is why you are having difficulty understanding that I am advocating for political consolidation akin to worker’s movements rather than faith. Learn the tactics of your opponents and apply them where it’s applicable for your ends, we are rational and democratic in thought so we will be able to pick the right tactics to use and utilize them better than the opposition.
I think you are confusing my statements with that of faith based religious organizations. First off, I said ONE of the reasons people move away from faith is to escape organized religion, which was the case for me. I distanced myself from the organization of Islamic ideology because it was undeniably bad for society. The reason I said that is specifically because of your second statement, which is conflating organization with faith based religious conformity. AAAs need to stop doing this, we have to take the organization without the faith. As for rationality, we are still thinking in terms of individual rationality and not one as a group. The biggest weakness of AAAs is the lack of show of strength in numbers. Individual AAAs are ganged up and beaten for having reasonable criticisms just because they appear outnumbered. Are we outnumbered? Are there more Jihadis out there than AAAs? Then how is it that the Jihadis and the religious extremists look so much bigger than their actual numbers? Its strategy, it’s narrative and political savvy. Stop saying we’re more rational and looking down on everything the other side is doing, a clever competitor looks at the opponent and learns what they are doing right. As for “faith” (or whatever you want to call it) based atheism you are accusing me of, it is mostly the AAAs who have to hide their opinions and keep to themselves despite being in the correct position because people like you cannot get off their high horse, keep thinking they will be handed things because they are simply rational and then when confronted with any kind of opposition to tangible changes that would improve society find themselves completely powerless. Nobody gives you shit just because you are right, not even in democratic societies. You yourself have probably not seen unity without faith, be it religious or Marxist, that is why you are having difficulty understanding that I am advocating for political consolidation akin to worker’s movements rather than faith. Learn the tactics of your opponents and apply them where it’s applicable for your ends, we are rational and democratic in thought so we will be able to pick the right tactics to use and utilize them better than the opposition.
NO! The reason to move away from faith is to stop being ignorant. Religion is not the only place we find ‘faith.’
I seriously doubt people move away from religion to escape faith. It’s more like they begin to realize ‘faith’ is not working. ‘Faith’ leads nowhere. Faith is not the same as organized religion.
Which has nothing to do with “FAITH.” It has to do with rationally looking at the religion and how it functions. It has to do with observation and rational thought.
I specifically separated “FAITH” from religion. Read it again.
There is no “Group Rationality.” There are people working together to be rational, as scientists, and philosophers. We have organizations like this. Perhaps we need more. We have "Rational Thinkers, Humanists, Free Thinkers, Atheist International, Atheist Republic, Atheist Foundations of Australia, Secular Student Alliance, and thousands of Meet Ups. Not sure what you are getting at. No one is thinking in terms of individuals.
I have to go teach a class.
The problem is that non-religious are a diverse group, beyond their lack of theistic belief, they might hold differing views on just about anything.
That said, in the UK id like to see the practice of “parachuting” bishops into the House Of Lords abolished.
While we’re at it we can remove all state funding from faith schools, and ensure religion is taught only in a secular context. If people want to indoctrinate their own children, they can do so at home or in a church.
An ethics or morality class would be better, and while I’m compiling a wish list, basic logic, and critical reasoning would be a good addition.
There is group rationality which is collective thinking for the benefit of a group. I also specifically separated faith from politics which is what I’m getting at. The groups you are talking about are more defensive than proactive. Also, if you notice, I am talking within one of these group’s forums. We have to be more politically savvy, proactive and consolidated.
All ideas that need political support and it cannot happen until we have some kind of method to our voting and political practices. Diversity is not a problem it is a strength for the AAA community. Any group can be accused of working with racist, nationalist or other legacy demographic flawed motivations which AAAs can’t. We can work out within our diverse groups with thought processes that encompass all kinds of demographics and transcend all their baggage, we have to realize that we are any democratic political party’s wet dream if we can direct our votes and start leveraging them for our own political ends. Who knows, maybe garner enough support to start political parties and take control of our own political agendas, which we should start developing.
Careful what you smoke. Not sure what you mean by provocative. However, there is a fine line between the idea of being provocative and being just like a religion., You want to start burning down churches, shaming church attendees? We could make them wear yellow stars on the arms of their clothing and walk to the left of us when we pass by them on the streets.
I will disagree once again… Atheists are about as provocative as they need to be. It’s clear we are in a battle, and it is also clear we are severely outnumbered. Perhaps you need to be more provocative. Why don’t you try that and let us know how it works out for you?
“WE” are already doing this through the organizations I previously mentioned. Those of us who want to join such organizations. Unfortunately, NOT ALL ATHEISTS ARE LIBERALS. Rational or not, we do not agree. I for one, certainly disagree with being proactive against religion. I am not being proactive against religion when I insist on separation of church and state. I am not being proactive against region when I try to ban prayer from our schools. These are not anti-relgious stances at all. They are merely an attempt to keep the government secular and out of the controlling hands of theocracy. In the case of the USA that is Christian Nationalism. Are you asserting no atheists are active? challenging Christian Nationalism? You are just wrong. The American Humanist Association. continues to win court cases for separation of church and state. Are you just preaching to the choir? We are having a hard time currently because of the make-up of our supreme court, but that does not mean atheist organizations are not fighting? I am at a loss as to what you are getting at. You sound more like an irrational zealot than a motivated atheist. Join one of the organizations and start doing what you can.
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@Muntakim.avenginggod, you sound angry at the situation you’ve described where you live. IMO, rightfully so. Your insistence, however, that all folks who identify as non-theists unite in a giant, world-wide, social/political group and go about, what sounds like, an overthrow of anything is completely useless. It seems you are waving your arms about yelling for folks to do something about what has effected you personally. No. That won’t work. If you want to do something about what you find intolerable, then fucking do it! Be a leader. If your actions prove worthy and you show vision, others will follow. If you don’t want to do that, then go join some already existing group with whom you discover an affinity and work with them.
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Adjust your glasses dude, not only are you misreading words, but you are also reading words that aren’t there. Who in this entire thread mentioned anything about discriminatory practices against other religions? Why are you having so much difficulty with the concept of political empowerment? The organizations you mentioned are not being PROACTIVE (not provocative) enough in my opinion and I want more to be done. I have been following these groups for a very long time and I have been living in a country until recently where these groups are not even active. If they were being proactive they would have been able to unify a much larger chunk of the AAA voters and if they were successful with their political consolidation, then a lot of politicians should have already been asking for the endorsement of these groups. Look at the numbers and tell me there aren’t enough AAAs out there to want to cater to their needs? I myself am not a liberal, I take each idea as they come, if progressive policy doesn’t make sense I don’t support it. It is not about a liberal agenda, since liberals reject AAAs as they are too busy catering to the Muslim “minorities”. We need our own agenda, that suits us. If you have something else to do then complete the task, read through what I’m saying before responding, because this was frankly a waste of time.
You would have a really hard time convincing them of that. What in the world is your idea of ‘proactive’ and demonstrate how they are not doing it. Let’s begin with “American Atheists” who just won a court battle "Settlement for Harassed Nonreligious Student’ American Atheists Wins Settlement for Harassed Nonreligious Student - American Atheists Demonstrate that this organization is not proactive.
Demonstrate that “Atheist Experience of Austin” is not proactive. In fact, pick an atheist organization. This one you are currently active in “Atheist Republie.” How is the Atheist Republic not proactive. How is the founder Armin Navabi, not being proactive.
The atheist “Movement” if you want to call it that, is the fastest growing segment of the American Population. It is proactive. It is also flourishing in the Islamic population. Atheism Among Muslims is “Spreading Like Wildfire” September 19, 2021 Atheism Among Muslims is “Spreading Like Wildfire” | The National Interest
Where is this lack of proactivity you are speaking of. Please, pick an atheist organization and tell me how they are not being proactive.
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I used to live somewhere where the situation was unfair, but I was always in a niche where I spoke my mind without hesitation, to people ranging from Jihadists, decent and awesome Muslims and Hindus. I have seen the problem, and I am seeing how the incredibly small minority of Caliphatists where I now live are playing the political system. I am simply saying two can play at that game and if we do, we will win. Nobody is saying a global political movement for AAAs is going to happen tomorrow, but from what I can see even the first steps have not been taken. The reason I said what I said in the first line is that AAAs are free thinkers and staunch individualists, which is great and a quality I place great value even for myself. However, we are not seeing how these individuals could impact politics if they are consolidated. We should be courted by politicians not ignored.
As for “doing it” everyone has to start somewhere, where I used to live atheist-apostate groups wouldn’t allow you to join without months of review because they are scared of being infiltrated and targeted. You have to present an idea before you can lead it and whether I’d lead this idea or not, this has to be presented, in a group such as this very one.