Atheism and Abortion

[Old_man_shouts_at_cl]

@dogalmighty

I am thinking you don’t want to come across like a dick. JMHO.

He is coming across as a troll.

[AlphaLogica157]

No, a troll would not lay out an argument, give examples to support it, and answer those who honestly challenged him. So far I have done that over and over again.

It’s only you and David who want to divert the discussion for personal amusement…idk sounds like a troll to me.

[Whitefire13]

@Whitefire13

The seven characteristics of life include:
responsiveness to the environment;
growth and change;
ability to reproduce;
have a metabolism and breathe;
maintain homeostasis; (eg Examples of homeostasis in humans include the regulation of blood sugar via insulin, the regulation of body temperature by the hypothalamus, the constant surveillance and functioning of the immune system, regulation of blood pressure via sensors in the walls of arteries, the pH balance maintained by the lungs etc.)
being made of cells; and.
passing traits onto offspring.

Olive branch??? Why are we fighting? Lol

Ok, here:

1. Growth and change - fetus
2. Ability to reproduce - nope (fetus cannot)
3. Have a metabolism and breathe - nope (fetus cannot)
4. Maintain homeostasis- depends (highly dependant on placenta as this develops) on various stages (see link also) No
5. Being made of “cells” - yes after fertilized egg attaches and divisions can begin
6. Passing traits on to offspring - no to fetus
7. Responsive to environment - depends on stage of development (reflexes vs responses) & not cognitive

Does this help with why a broad term “life” needs specific perimeters. You excluded “virus”, kept to “human” and these traits define human life.

Also you made clear that terminating a fertilized egg was terminating “life”

• again, clarity (so is stepping on an ant ) so a 7 characteristics help in keeping the discussion somewhat meaningful.

@AlphaLogica157

Not true,

To “human rights” only outside womb. Pretty confident yes/no. I said Canada. Where you are from may be different … READ my answers (I covered this in it)

@AlphaLogica157

do not want to discuss legality because, again, that does not tell us what

Guess what? Legal minds, medical minds,
Judges, and society have all had a say in legal matters - so it does count. Those that oppose abortion still voice their opinion. If I was in a country that made abortion illegal, I’d most likely “voice” my opinion. Many ethical matters have been weighed in these decisions.

@AlphaLogica157

the woman’s life has the seven characteristics. She has thoughts and emotions, the ability to reproduce and has agency. I will err on her side when supporting “life”.”

So does the child…so now what?

HUH??? WTF - Jesus fuckin’Christ NO it doesn’t - so we are NOT at some form of “stand off” here.

[Tin-Man]

@AlphaLogica157

And you remind me of all the pseudo-intellectual hacks who masquerade as honest participants, until you get exposed for providing nothing more than talking points you have heard from twitter.

…(sniff-sniff-sniff)… Ewwwwww… … I think I smell a dirty sock with a hole in the POE. Interestingly funny how these guys gradually start showing their true colors more and more as people began to call them out on their bullshit more and more… (chuckle)…

[Tin-Man]

@AlphaLogica157

It’s only you and David who want to divert the discussion for personal amusement…idk sounds like a troll to me.

Hey, “Genius”! Hellllll-ooooooo! You forgot about ME!.. … Dammit! What’s a guy gotta do to get some credit around here???

[AlphaLogica157]

“Does this help with why a broad term “life” needs specific perimeters. You excluded “virus”, kept to “human” and these traits define human life.”

“Ability to reproduce - nope (fetus cannot)”

OK so there is an issue with your response, namely a fetus is not a fixed point, that a fetus cannot reproduce no more invalidates life than say, for a 3 year old, who also cannot reproduce.

“Have a metabolism and breathe - nope (fetus cannot)”

Not true, just because the lungs are not the means of gathering oxygen a fetus absolutely breaths in the womb:

The placenta and umbilical cord are organs that enable a developing baby to get everything it needs from its mother. This includes oxygen. Every breath that the mother takes brings oxygen into her bloodstream. The placenta carries oxygen to the placenta and then to the umbilical cord to the baby.

Metabolism

Yes, a fetus has a metabolism. All living organisms have a metabolism, from a single cell to a large, multicellular organism. The fetus is made of many cells, each of which requires the consumption of nutrients to maintain cellular health and provide fuel for processes that occur in the cell. Further, the fetus is growing rapidly which requires even more energy and nutrient consumption, giving the fetus a very high metabolism.

“Passing traits on to offspring - no to fetus”

Again falls under the same as reproduction.

“Responsive to environment”

The fetus does respond to its environment, from the health of the mother to the food she eats, I think the issue here is how we define environment.

“Also you made clear that terminating a fertilized egg was terminating “life””

Was this in response to the late term abortion comment? Because I did not say they were the same.

Yes stepping in an ant is terminating life, as the ant is certainly alive.

“Guess what? Legal minds, medical minds,
Judges, and society have all had a say in legal matters - so it does count.”

I only want to avoid this as it does not provide anything, there was a time when abortion was illegal, did not make it right. That is my point, if I can find legal opinions and medical opinions that contradict each other, to whom do we decide to listen to?

[AlphaLogica157]

You have not called me out on anything, you have made ridiculous comments, but in no way have you provided anything useful to the discussion.

[AlphaLogica157]

So you admit you are a troll, thanks.

[Tin-Man]

@AlphaLogica157

You have not called me out on anything, you have made ridiculous comments, but in no way have you provided anything useful to the discussion.

Well, shit… That wasn’t very nice. Now you done gone and hurt my feelings. Woe is me! Just when I thought my life was starting to take a turn for the better, I am suddenly faced with the realization I contribute nothing useful to society! My life is so empty and useless! Whatever shall I do??? Woe is meeeeeeeee!!!

[AlphaLogica157]

Acceptance is the first step to recovery. I am rooting for you.

[dogalmighty]

@AlphaLogica157

then why should i continue to argue with respect?

Really? I need to remind you that respect is a main tenet of humanity? I am sure you know that.

Also, and not your fault, but this site is one were respect is usually the forefront. The atheists here, IMHO, are a friendly bunch.

I would have called david off topic, or correct him in clarification…and have done that to him before, as he has done to me.

Anyway…im going to go take our dog out…then go to sleep.
Peace.

[Whitefire13]

@Whitefire13

see a pro-birth movement and not necessarily “life” (child after birth meets 5 characteristics) yet the quality of this child’s life is now deemed “as not fair” and the woman who is the host for gestation meets all 7 characteristics, yet she is to yield to a life form that meets 2-3.

FROM my original post that I asked you to reread in REPONSE to :[quote=“AlphaLogica157, post:126, topic:172”]
no more invalidates life than say, for a 3 year old, who also cannot reproduce.
[/quote]

@AlphaLogica157

a fetus absolutely breaths in the womb:

Via woman’s womb - NOT ON iTS OWN

@AlphaLogica157

The fetus does respond to its environment, from the health of the mother to the food she eats, I think the issue here is how we define environment.

I acknowledged this - no cognitive ability (thought) - but a response to WOMAN’s WOMB and HER CHOICES (are are you now going to prescribe her diet?)

@AlphaLogica157

there was a time when abortion was illegal, did not make it right. That is my point, if I can find legal opinions and medical opinions that contradict each other, to whom do we decide to listen to?

There was a time women couldn’t legally own property or divorce her husband or vote - WHAT changes societal “laws”. Advancement in medical and scientific knowledge…listening to WOMEN and acknowledging our contribution to society (aside from being a baby-maker) - we also got rid of “debt prisons” and enacted labor laws … society laws evolve as do our ethics and human (equality) rights (eg. Gay marriage). It takes time, discussion, debate AND a shedding of instilled “religious law” based on pleasing the invisible sky daddy of choice (eg Allah, Jesus, Jehovah, etc).
The pro-life debate hinges deeply, NOT on medical science or even “human rights” but interpretation of gods laws wanting to impose this on everyone.

CHOICE is where one “errs”… because to make it illegal, dear sir, the WOMAN will find a
way to terminate an unwanted pregnancy regardless of law, as she has done since the beginning of “our” homosapien time.

[AlphaLogica157]

You offer an interesting perspective. First I believe we agree on the point that life begins at the beginning of the biological process etc. And that all life as innate value is a moral evaluation, and is not true simply because it is moral.

But on this point we i see a problem:

"I do not have the right to impose my moral values on others. "

Is it not true that we already do this as a society? I mean laws against murder are also a moral evaluation, we do not allow parents to abandon their children, or teachers to hit them as punishment, or abuse them verbally.

So I guess my point is why is it wrong for abortion, and not any of the other examples i have listed.?

“I will resist the claims of for example, the pro life brigade attempting to impose their values on others. Because, as far as I can tell, those values are based on nothing more than personal superstition.”

But you gave a good reason why their values are not only superstition:

" Hence I think it may be argued that a human fetus is alive from the time it begins dividing cells. IF all life has value, then the fetus has value from that time, in itself."

“Won’t even try to argue the theological points . I don’t believe in god(s). Consequently, I consider theology , biblical hermeneutics, and exigesis forms of sophistry which may be dismissed out of hand”

I agree, no need to mention god, or scripture at all in this debate., as it offers nothing of value to the discussion.

" As a skeptic, I accept that I am am obliged to always question. Most strongly held beliefs more than anything else. "

You see the point of this thread my friend.

[AlphaLogica157]

@Whitefire13

“Via woman’s womb - NOT ON iTS OWN”

We are splitting hairs here. So I do not want to get bogged down on this.

“I acknowledged this - no cognitive ability (thought) - but a response to WOMAN’s WOMB and HER CHOICES (are are you now going to prescribe her diet?)”

But I wanted to give you an example of responding to its environment, just so I do not neglect any point you have raised.

"WHAT changes societal “laws”. Advancement in medical and scientific knowledge…listening to WOMEN "

Well, a lot of that has nothing to do with the discussion, and gender also is not authority…i mean if a room full of male obstetricians told you one thing and some random woman from wal-mart told you another…who are you going to listen to?

“The pro-life debate hinges deeply, NOT on medical science or even “human rights” but interpretation of gods laws wanting to impose this on everyone.”

I have given a clear example supported by empirical evidence, and supported with the full weight of the science of biology. So no mention of God or his laws at all.

" It takes time, discussion, debate AND a shedding of instilled “religious law” based on pleasing the invisible sky daddy of choice"

I agree, i am trying to have a debate right now, yet i only get met with dogmatic assertions comparable to even the most devout born again christian. How many times have I been told I cannot even raise the question just in this thread alone? Think about that…it seems like i am confronting some secular religious law, ‘her body, her choice’ is like a tenet, dogma that cannot be questioned, blasphemy against the church of woke. lol

“CHOICE is where one “errs”… because to make it illegal, dear sir, the WOMAN will find a
way to terminate an unwanted pregnancy regardless of law, as she has done since the beginning of “our” homosapien time.”

I have not advocated for making abortion illegal and even stated clearly that i do not think it should be the case…so i do not see the point in that comment. If I missed something please let me know.

[Whitefire13]

I’m going to bed but this is one last thought for tonight for you AR157.

I read your thoughts on politics and it stood out to me that you would defend “freedom of religion” and protect “free speech” (which I agree) -
HOWEVER
Ethically, I take issue with you on the fact that religion has done more harm to human lives (emotional, sexual and physical) AND caused the death of people (suicide, war) - YET in principle, you would none the less defend this choice of freedom of religion. Life isn’t fair for those caught in the dark side of religious institutions/cults.

BUT when it comes to a WOMAN’S choice, her body, you take issue with the “value of life” and want to restrict her.

Your ethical ideals of equality and principles are biased and as many a male poster pointed out, misogynistic.

Goodnight

[Whitefire13]

@AlphaLogica157

clear example supported by empirical evidence, and supported with the full weight of the science of biology.

BULLSHIT - you have your opinion in vague unsubstantiated terms

[AlphaLogica157]

“BULLSHIT - you have your opinion in vague unsubstantiated terms”

Please provide an example.

[Whitefire13]

All of it. I’m the one that set out specifics

Learn to read and comprehend. Re read if need be

Goodnight

[AlphaLogica157]

“All of it. I’m the one that set out specifics”

How is stating that life is to be found at the beginning of the biological process, a process that can be replicated, both independently and artificially, observed and measured, and has as many examples as the human population–an opinion in vague unsubstantiated terms?

My argument meets even the most rigorous criteria for evidence. What more do you want?

And I do know how to read, as I have read over your response and shown the holes in your argument. Why are you getting combative?

[LogicFTW]

@ AlphaLogica157

@AlphaLogica157

No my argument is built on the best evidence we have, empirical evidence.
The issue is my argument claims life is at the beginning of the biological process. You say it’s somewhere after that point.

What empirical evidence is that? Please, share this empirical evidence, I would love to know what this supposed empirical evidence of yours is.

Also I never said where my point is. I said the opposite: that there is no starting point. Please, pay attention to what I said, I dislike it when people say I said something I did not.

@AlphaLogica157

No, considering the issue of abortion from ONLY what is fair to the mother, the father (which you left out btw) and the child is a herculean effort. Please do not twist my words.

Their is only one person in this equation that is having her rights to her own body taken away by someone else’s opinion of when life starts, the woman. Sorry you feel I twisted your words, I hope that clarifies.

@AlphaLogica157

We are not talking about only the body of the mother, but also the body of the child,

Err what? The zygote/blastocyst/fetus rights to its own body is not at issue! The fetus is not being forced to carry a baby to term because of someone else’s unevidenced opinion.

@AlphaLogica157

it is not only an issue of 'her body–But the life of the child, which is easy to see outside of the womb, why is life easy to see only when its outside the womb?

Err here you go again, you decided the starting point of the life of a “child”, not by any sort of evidenced you presented to me so far, so I can only assume it is your unevidenced opinion of when life starts. I would not really care what your opinion is on when life begins because so far it is completely unevidenced, except,I do care that you, and millions of others support trying try to force that opinion on millions of womens bodies.

I have no problem understanding life in or out of the womb, one really nice advantage of out of the womb is, that the opinion of when a life starts no longer impacts a woman’s right to her own body.