@ AlphaLogica157
Try answering the question. Here it is again…
Should women have bodily autonomy or not?
I think you are trolling, with your inability or reluctance to answer this simple question.
How many times do I have to ask?
Answer: Until I have a reply.
“What empirical evidence is that? Please, share this empirical evidence, I would love to know what this supposed empirical evidence of yours is”
My empirical evidence is the very real, observable, replicatable, and measurable biological process that creates life for a human being as we know it.
"Also I never said where my point is. I said the opposite: that there is no starting point. "
I apologize for misrepresenting your position, I also hate when that happens. But to say there is no starting point requires some evidence to support that claim, because as I have already shown, life for an individual DOES have a beginning and an end.
“Their is only one person in this equation that is having her rights to her own body taken away by someone else’s opinion of when life starts, the woman.”
Says who? the child has a body, regardless of the stage of development. Even a ‘clump of cells’ is considered a body, as in a body of cells. You are have yet to show that a fetus is not alive to begin with. That it is not afforded all the same rights as a child outside of the womb.
Why is it ok to take away the right of the baby for the mother, inandof itself?
“Err what? The zygote/blastocyst/fetus rights to its own body is not at issue! The fetus is not being forced to carry a baby to term because of someone else’s unevidenced opinion.”
Being forced to carry a baby to term is not the only issue here, it’s just one. You seem to favor the rights of the mother and are willing to sacrifice the rights of the child in the process…that is my point, you have not even justified why the rights of one supersedes the other?
"Err here you go again, you decided the starting point of the life of a “child”, not by any sort of evidenced you presented to me so far, so I can only assume it is your unevidenced opinion of when life starts. "
But it is not without evidence, I am only being logically consistent with the evidence I have already presented.
" no longer impacts a woman’s right to her own body."
You have repeatedly stated this, yet have offered no justification or evidence to support why this is true?
Why is it ‘her body, her choice’? Says who, based on what? If it can be shown that a baby is in fact separate from the mother, in that it has its own agency and lived experience, biological effects then obviously its not only about the body of the mother, as their is a 2nd body also worthy of consideration.
Well, do we expect an answer?
“Your ethical ideals of equality and principles are biased and as many a male poster pointed out, misogynistic.”
How? that is a serious accusation that in no way reflects anything i have said. You cannot make that passive assertion without some evidence to back it up, burden of proof is on you now. Or take back what you said as you cannot divine my intent or character from this thread.
You are not psychic.
Why is it that as soon as I provided clear examples counter to your argument, you quickly got combative and dismissive? You jumped to the ad hominem and no longer responded to my argument? Is it possible that you have held some belief or dogma, and are upset that it has been exposed? I do not have any religious belief at all, have not made a religious argument, or even invoked God or tradition. So why you bring up religion in this discussion is beyond me.
Funny, I couldn’t sleep- so I took a peek at this thread. I’ll address your “opinion” vs “facts” in the morning.
Unlike you, when you didn’t respond immediately to me, I didn’t accuse you (your 12 hr wait time) YET I wrote (did you read) I was going to bed.
As for “as hominem” LOL I mentioned, from your own postings and my personal interaction with you an opinion of your character. I didn’t base my arguments on or against how your character itself is presenting.
You skip many of my points, and do not address my arguments. Then I need to repeat myself.
No one, especially myself, equates the fetus with “being my body” however it is DEPENDENT on a woman’s body for development (through all stages until outside the womb where another adult or mother can continue its care). Can a woman exercise the right to withdraw “life support” that her body is supplying and the fetus live? She can chose to withdraw the fetus if she does not want to provide the “life support”, end the development of the human within her body.
Donate money to sciences that are looking for ways to develop “artificial wombs” and you’ll “feel” better.
BTW, any woman facing or who may have faced this decision does not decide it “lightly”, no more than a family making a decision to withdraw life support from a loved one who is “brain dead”, but who’s body and continued “life” is dependant on “life support”.
Now, it is 1am - I am having a smoke, listening to a podcast and have a “life”…so most likely I will address you again tomorrow.
Oh, and trust me, you haven’t seen my combative side yet…
“Funny, I couldn’t sleep- so I took a peek at this thread. I’ll address your “opinion” vs “facts” in the morning.
Unlike you, when you didn’t respond immediately to me, I didn’t accuse you (your 12 hr wait time) YET I wrote (did you read) I was going to bed.”
What do you mean? I do not have an issue with you going to bed, its the accusation of misogyny that i take issue with.
“As for “as hominem” LOL I mentioned, from your own postings and my personal interaction with you an opinion of your character. I didn’t base my arguments on or against how your character itself is presenting.”
Not true, you said “Your ethical ideals of equality and principles are biased and as many a male poster pointed out, misogynistic.” Based on nothing at all other than your empty assertion. That is wrong. I never assumed your character or intent, i only responded to your arguments, point by point, and even asked if there was anything i missed, just to give you the benefit of the doubt.
So it is not true when you say: " You skip many of my points, and do not address my arguments."
Please point to one argument I skipped?
"No one, especially myself, equates the fetus with “being my body” however it is DEPENDENT on a woman’s body for development "
So, that does not speak to wither or not the fetus is a life in the same way as a child outside of the womb.
“BTW, any woman facing or who may have faced this decision does not decide it “lightly”, no more than a family making a decision to withdraw life support from a loved one who is “brain dead”, but who’s body and continued “life” is dependant on “life support”.”
So what? What does this have to do with the topic at hand? That does not justify the pro-choice position, or the claim the the a woman’s right to choose supersedes the rights of the fetus?
There are a lot of claims just asserted as true without even the slightest attempt to justify such a position, something is not true simply because you or I say so, we have to explain why it is true.
"Now, it is 1am - I am having a smoke, listening to a podcast and have a “life”…so most likely I will address you again tomorrow.
Oh, and trust me, you haven’t seen my combative side yet…"
have a good night, I do not want to see you combative side, I want to see the side of you that will debate in good faith and not make baseless accusations, she was there for the start, bring her back.
That is a description for your empirical evidence, You still have not stated any actual evidence. What are you replicating, what is being measured?
Evidence that life is a cycle:
Life is made up of cells,
I assume based on your writing skills that you are aware: cells follow a cycle of (start with whatever because it is a cycle,) reproducing, doing their function and dying.
Now there is another form of dividing that is a bit more complex called Meiosis (look it up if you need to!)
But even this much slower cand slightly more complex cycle is still essentially the same thing just on longer time scales, cells that divide, perform function, and eventually die, using dna to carry that information through the cycle.
So I ask again, where is your empirically evidenced “starting point” where is your evidence that cellular based life has a starting point?
But besides all that, the burden of proof is not on me. I am not trying to force an unevidenced opinion on to woman’s body, the burden of proof lies on you, how do you prove life starts at “insemination” ?
Are you really trying to argue that a fetus’s right to its own body is being taken away when it is aborted? Why cant you say what you are likely really trying to say? Why does a zygote/blastocyst/fetus right to live off the mother’s body get superseded by a mother’s right to her own body? Say it correctly so it is an honest question, written as you stated is silly, nonsense. A baby’s right to its own body is not at issue here, it is not being forced give up rights to its own body. it is the zygote/blastocyst/fetus right to a woman’s body to continue to live that you are trying to inject your opinion on. (And it remains an opinion for as long as you continue to fail to actually demonstrate even a little bit of actual empirical evidence that life starts at point x of your choosing and only at that point.
I grow tired of your games of avoiding providing any actual evidence to validate your opinion. Show me the demonstrable empirical evidence you keep going on about or I am done with this conversation because I might as well be having a debate with a wall.
Because so far you have not managed to evidence in any way your opinion that a zygote/blastocyst/fetus rights automatically supersedes a woman’s right to her own body. Since you have so far failed to do this (Don’t feel bad millions have tried and all have failed to do this so far) we are forced to decide whose opinion matters. Since i think we can all agree people should be allowed anatomy over their bodies, we leave this particular opinion piece to the only person that actually matters: the mother that faces potentially life threatening sacrifice to their own body to decide to take of a medical tool that allows them more control over their own bodies.
“hat is a description for your empirical evidence, You still have not stated any actual evidence. What are you replicating, what is being measured?”
How have I not presented evidence? We both know how babies are made, we both know that this process is observable, we can replicate it, both in a lab and via natural means. I argue that the only logically consistent position on where life begins is with the very real process that creates that very life. This is not controversial, nor hard to understand. To argue that life begins either before or after that does not fit with the evidence presented, i.e how babies are made. Do i need to go through the process step by step?
You speak of life outside of the context at hand, we are not talking about life in a cosmic cycle. We do not look at the after math of Hiroshima and say no one died. You know exactly what i mean by life having a beginning and an end, death is real, do not pretend like it is not.
“So I ask again, where is your empirically evidenced “starting point” where is your evidence that cellular based life has a starting point?”
I have already presented it, unless you claim that natural process of human birth is not real? Obviously I do not think that is the case, but it appears to be.
“Are you really trying to argue that a fetus’s right to its own body is being taken away when it is aborted?”
Yes, why are you surprised, is that not logically consistent from my initial position?
Since I hold it as true that life begins at insemination, then obviously aborting that life would be a violation of its rights from my perspective. Do you understand?
“Why cant you say what you are likely really trying to say? Why does a zygote/blastocyst/fetus right to live off the mother’s body get superseded by a mother’s right to her own body?”
Because that is not what I am trying to say. I only asked you why the opposite is true.
“A baby’s right to its own body is not at issue here, it is not being forced give up rights to its own body. it is the zygote/blastocyst/fetus right to a woman’s body to continue to live that you are trying to inject your opinion on.”
What, how is questioning the validity of the argument, inserting my opinion?
I am questioning, NOT asserting. I am giving examples to support my position. I have shown that the pro-choice position is built on hallow foundation only. Nothing more. You say the body of the baby is not an issue here, says who? I argue that it is, you have yet to even attempt to show why that is not true.
“(And it remains an opinion for as long as you continue to fail to actually demonstrate even a little bit of actual empirical evidence that life starts at point x of your choosing and only at that point.”
“I grow tired of your games of avoiding providing any actual evidence to validate your opinion.”
Just because you reject the evidence out of hand does not mean there is no evidence. I have provided some, you have not even attempted address why it is not sufficient.
“Because so far you have not managed to evidence in any way your opinion that a zygote/blastocyst/fetus rights automatically supersedes a woman’s right to her own body.”
Not true, I have given specific examples of how the baby is not a part of the mother is the same way as her hand or spleen. The baby can have physical experiences separate from the mother, a common example is hiccups, it is not the mother who is having the muscle spasm, but the baby independent of the mothers body. Since I can give one clear example then my position is not unfounded.
" Since i think we can all agree people should be allowed anatomy over their bodies, we live this particular opinion piece to the only person that actually matters: the mother that faces potentially life threatening sacrifice to their own body to decide to take of a medical tool that allows them more control over their own bodies."
Ok, then that assumption of autonomy should also extend to the body of the baby in the womb, if not then why?
If it is the rare cases of incest/rape/risk of life then I grant you off the bat that abortion should be allowed in those cases. But what about all the other cases where none of that applies? Since we make the distinction between cases, all cases are not equal and therefore are open for discussion.
" I need to remind you that respect is a main tenet of humanity?"
You are not wrong, but it is a two way street.
Have a good night.
You are going to have to go through your position step by step. I fail to see where you shared your emperical, repeatable evidence. That life begins at “insemination”
“We both know how babies are made” is not repeatable emperical evidence.
Yes this process is observable, and repeatable, but how babies are made is not emperical evidence of when life begins. How babies are made only describes a process, a step in the cycle of cellular based life. Explaining how babies are made unfortunately does not show life starts at point x.
Insemination is only one step along a process. For insemination to work it requires steps before it to occur that does not sound like a starting point to me. The male sperm must be healthy, there needs to be a healthy female egg present. A female egg or male sperm requires an entity that is capable of producing said sperm and eggs, I can go on forever like this, why? because life is a cycle.
Again, I have yet to see you present any sort of evidence that life begins at insemination and only then.
Spell out your supposed evidence, explain how insemination is the starting point of life, but not only that. But life with so much privilege that it supercedes a womans right to her own body.
You do realize this unevidenced line you draw, a woman is not even allowed to use a day after pill like plan B? Or she by your unevidenced opinion “thus point on is life” is murdering her own child?
Also another point, you keep bringing up the fathers rights. About that: why does a father get any sort of right to force a woman to give up her own rights to her own body? But the father does not have to give up the right to anything? “Dad” has the right to take no part in their kids life if they so choose, (the dad could up and leave and disappear,) giving the baby up for adoption if he so chose, but the mother is forced to give up her own body whether she wants to or not?
The dad, (aka the male that spent 30 seconds to a few minutes pleasuring them selves) that produces millions or billions of sperm a day get to tell a woman that has only a few hundred at best viable eggs and has to carry around in their own bodies at high cost to the womans body, gets anywhere near equal say on what comes down to opinon?
Answer the question:
Should women have bodily autonomy or not?
Well, do we expect an answer?
It seems increasingly clear to me as this discussion goes on, this guy is all talk and zero substance. He got nothing that actually supports his position. He avoids key questions eithir with silence or vague obfuscating answers.
I am always open to learning new things, but this guy brings nothing to the table so far other then unsupported talk.
Which is too bad. I was hoping to learn something new from some one that does not believe in giving women choice, that does not fall back on some variation of “because god.”
Oh well, I would of been really surprised if he had actual evidence for his view that: “life starts at point insemination”
“It seems increasingly clear to me as this discussion goes on, this guy is all talk and zero substance. He got nothing that actually supports his position. He avoids key questions.”
Name one key question that I have avoided. You all keep making these accusations, yet when I ask for an example…silence.
I have responded to you point by point. if you want to talk about failing to answer questions you have not answered any question that I have raised. You keep repeating again and again that a fetus does have the right force a woman to give up her own rights to her own body, OK
I asked you why the right to a womans own body trumps the right to life of the child?
You have not answered this.
“Yes this process is observable, and repeatable, but how babies are made is not empirical evidence of when life begins.”
Yes it is:
Empirical evidence is the information received by means of the senses, particularly by observation and documentation of patterns and behavior through experimentation.
I argue that since there is a clear biological process, the end result that will produce a human being. That process, which absolutely counts as empirical evidence, is where life begins. The evidence supports my assertion. If you claim it does not, then you have to explain why i am wrong.
Insemination is the first step in the development process. health of the sperm or egg, does not play a role in determining where life begins as neither the sperm or egg can initiate the biological process on their own.
“Again, I have yet to see you present any sort of evidence that life begins at insemination and only then”
I have, you just dismissed it out of hand. How is my argument wrong? Based on what?
"Also another point, you keep bringing up the fathers rights. About that: why does a father get any sort of right to force a woman to give up her own rights to her own body? "
That is not what I said, I merely asked why it is not the case that a father gets a say. Again, you did not provide an answer.
" But the father does not have to give up the right to anything? “Dad” has the right to take no part in their kids life if they so choose, (the dad could up and leave and disappear,) giving the baby up for adoption if he so chose, but the mother is forced to give up her own body whether she wants to or not?"
Not true, as there are legal consequences for doing so. Not only that but societal consequences as well:
Child abandonment occurs when a parent, guardian, or person in charge of a child either deserts a child without any regard for the child’s physical health, safety or welfare and with the intention of wholly abandoning the child, or in some instances, fails to provide necessary care for a child living under their roof.
A person charged with deserting a child may face felony or misdemeanor penalties and other consequences.
What Constitutes Child Abandonment?
Being unwilling to provide care, support, or supervision for the child.
https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/child-abandonment.html
So you see it is simply not true.
“The dad, (aka the male that spent 30 seconds to a few minutes pleasuring them selves) that produces millions or billions of sperm a day get to tell a woman that has only a few hundred at best viable eggs and has to carry around in their own bodies at high cost to the womans body, gets anywhere near equal say on what comes down to opinon?”
Why? Regardless of the time it took to inseminate the egg, it is still a process that involves two people, and the assertion that both should have a say, is fair to both the mother and the father. What is wrong with that statement? I am not taking anything away from the mother, but i am giving the father a equal voice.
Here it is…you have utterly failed to answer this simple question viz:
Should women have bodily autonomy or not?
Well, do we expect an answer?
Spot on. He won’t answer my simple question, but responds with insults or deflections.
I don’t think he is an atheist either, unless he is one of the right wing incels forever whingeing about not getting laid when it is obvious after 30 seconds in their company why that is so.
And so begins the self-congratulatory circle jerking. Have fun boys.
Damn, vindication hurts so good.
And yet no answers from you. Just more childish venom.
Here it is…you have utterly failed to answer this simple question viz:
Should women have bodily autonomy or not?
Well, do we expect an answer?
" Just more childish venom."
it’s called projecting, and you are doing it now.
Here it is…you have utterly failed to answer this simple question viz:
Should women have bodily autonomy or not?
Well, do we expect an answer?
You have systematically and arbitrarily dismissed everything that dares disagree with your position, that’s not debate. Now it could simply be that you have a blind spot where abortion is concerned, but nevertheless it is you who is being dogmatic, and making subjective arbitrary assertions, as well using straw man polemic to shore up your own opinion.