Same, and I’m a trans guy. I’m not against others having one, but they still mess with me.
It always makes me raise an eyebrow when somebody makes that statement. Does anybody anywhere have ANY memories of being in their mother’s womb prior to birth? Better yet, does anybody have any concept of ANYTHING prior to being born? Pain, hunger, fear, contentment, happiness, sadness, or otherwise? Sure, at some point a fetus does have a fully functional nervous system that can detect pain. No doubt. But at what point does it become AWARE of pain other than simply having a naturally reactive reflex against it? Think really hard. What is the absolute earliest memory you have? Personally, I have a couple of “fuzzy snapshot” memories from when I was maybe a year and a half (give or take a couple of months). Prior to that, there is NOTHING in my memory banks. My Mom told me of a time when I was still an infant. She and my dad were travelling across the desert heading out west with me laying on the backseat. Somehow, I fell off the seat and cut my head on something in the floorboard. Required stitches. I can only imagine it hurt like a mo-fo and I was crying and wailing like a banshee, scaring them both to death while blood poured down my face. But do I remember any of that? Nope. Not even remotely. They could have amputated one of my limbs during those early months, and I would have never known when/how/why until I got old enough to notice I did not look like the other kids. And it would likely be awhile longer before I could even ask questions about it and understand the answers. Anyway, just something that caught my attention. Figured I would put my two cents in the pot.
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As an adult, I have now and then been exposed to some physical pain. But my memories of those episodes is mostly remembering being in pain, but not the pain itself. But that does not mean it wasn’t painful when it happened.
Very true. I, too, have experienced some rather gruesome pain many times in my life. And, like you said, when I do happen to remember those events, I do not remember the pain itself. Regardless of how badly it hurt at the time. But in the example I gave about getting stitches, I have ZERO recollection of ANY OF THAT INCIDENT. And the ONLY reason I know about it at all is because I was TOLD it happened once I was older. And, fact is, I have absolutely no way of confirming whether or not it’s true. Whereas whenever I got hurt when I was older and aware, I can remember the incident and remember I was in pain, even if I don’t remember the pain itself. See what I mean? (Sorry if I’m not explaining this very well.) Anyway, this is just one of many “mind games” I ponder from time to time. I suppose another way of saying it is to ask, “At what point do we actually become CONSCIOUS of pain (or anything, for that matter), as opposed to simply reacting to it due to basic reflexes?”
I’m not quite sure I understand what your argument is here. Is it that it is only painful if you are conscious of the pain? Or is it that it is only worthy of consideration if the organism in question is somehow conscious about the pain? I don’t get it. Can you explain?
Therein lies the problem. I wasn’t really trying to present an argument. Because, honestly, I can’t say I know the answer(s) to the question you asked. Like I said, it is mostly just one of many such things I toss around in my head now and then. To me it’s really just something for “mental exercise”. Stuff like that fascinates me.
Whether it is an abortion or a miscarriage of a live foetus happening for natural reasons does probably not make much difference for the foetus(*). So I guess that’s sort of a baseline - when doing abortions, the procedure should ideally be designed such that the potential pain and suffering for the foetus is not significantly worse than it would be with a natural miscarriage. But there is also the aspect of what kind of life the kid would have if the mother is forced to give birth, something that must be weighed against the potential pain and suffering of the foetus. OK, these were some totally random musings from my side, but those are the things I toss around in my head.
(*) No, I’m not medically qualified, nor do I pretend to be.
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According to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, a developing foetus is not capable of feeling pain until the third trimester, at about 27 weeks of pregnancy.
Scientific paper on foetus development, and pain.
"Free nerve endings, the “alarm buttons,” begin to develop at about seven weeks’ gestation1,2; projections from the spinal cord, the major “cable” to the brain, can reach the thalamus (the lower alarm) at seven weeks’ gestation.3 An intact spinothalamic projection might be viewed as the minimal necessary anatomical architecture to support pain processing, putting the lower limit for the experience of pain at seven weeks’ gestation.
At this time, however, the nervous system has yet to fully mature. No laminar structure is evident in the thalamus or cortex, a defining feature of maturity.4,5 The external wall of the brain is about 1 mm thick and consists of an inner and outer layer with no cortical plate. The neuronal cell density of the outer layer is much higher than that of a newborn infant or adult and at seven weeks’ gestation has yet to receive any thalamic projections. Without thalamic projections, these neuronal cells cannot process noxious information from the periphery.
The first projections from the thalamus to cortex (the higher alarm) appear at 12-16 weeks’ gestation. By this stage the brain’s outer layer has split into an outer cortical rim, with a subplate developing below. The thalamic projections that develop from 12-16 weeks penetrate the subplate. Within the subplate, cortical afferents establish prolonged synaptic contacts before entering the cortical plate. The subplate is a “waiting compartment,” required for mature connections in the cortex.6,7 The major afferent fibres (thalamocortical, basal forebrain, and corticocortical) can wait in the subplate for several weeks, before they penetrate and form synapses within the cortical plate from 23-25 weeks’ gestation. Subsequent dissolution of the subplate occurs through prolonged growth and maturation of associative connections in the human cerebral cortex.
Spinothalamic projections into the subplate may provide the minimal necessary anatomy for pain experience,8 but this view does not account for the transient nature of the subplate and its apparent role in the maturation of functional cortical connections.6 A lack of functional neuronal activity within the subplate calls into question the pain experience of a fetus before the penetration of spinothalamic fibres into the cortical plate.
Current theories of pain consider an intact cortical system to be both necessary and sufficient for pain experience.9,10 In support are functional imaging studies showing that activation within a network of cortical regions correlate with reported pain experience.9 Furthermore, cortical activation can generate the experience of pain even in the absence of actual noxious stimulation.10 These observations suggest thalamic projections into the cortical plate are the minimal necessary anatomy for pain experience. These projections are complete at 23 weeks’ gestation. The period 23-25 weeks’ gestation is also the time at which the peripheral free nerve endings and their projection sites within the spinal cord reach full maturity.1 By 26 weeks’ gestation the characteristic layers of the thalamus and cortex are visible, with obvious similarities to the adult brain,6,7 and it has recently been shown that noxious stimulation can evoke haemodynamic changes in the somatosensory cortex of premature babies from a gestational age of 25 weeks.11 Although the system is clearly immature and much development is still to occur (fig 1), good evidence exists that the biological system necessary for pain is intact and functional from around 26 weeks’ gestation."
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Not according to any reputable medical authority.
To evangelist fakes? Oh yes, they lie about it all the time.
But then how many millions have those same evangelists donated to childrens’ welfare? Adoption groups? Single Mother Support charities? !0% of their income? LOL…
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Two tings:
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I cant remember what the whole thing I said at that time was (and I’m too lazy to look), but if I didn’t already say it (and apologies if I hadn’t, I meant after a certain time. The fetus has to be a certain amount of months old before it can feel pain, but I can’t remember which one. Though it’s in the 2nd or 3rd trimester, I think 3rd.
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Just because a boy doesn’t remember the excruciating pain of being circumcised (with or without anesthetic), does it negate the harmful effects it has on his personal being, or that it’s wrong?
You are so luck! I still remember that rusty coat hanger ripping through my intestines, wrapping around my lungs, catching on my ribs and jerking me the hell into this world. It’s a good thing there was gauze in the trash can and that I heal quickly.
Just goes to prove "Evallusion is real and life will find a way.
I clarified my mistake to the Tin Man. And, like Sheldon pointed out, it’s in the 3rd trimester.
I don’t know. I can look that up. I bet you AT LEAST some. But considering that most atheists are male, and men are more likely to donate to charity (while women are more likely to recycle) [1, 2], it’s possible that those who are less religious are more likely to donate to charity, but of course this could possibly be a false correlation. Still possible, though.
Aren’t adoption groups usually religious?
I don’t know, but that got me thinking, how many Single Father support charities are there? I’m going to look into both (those who donate to SMS charities and how many SFS charities there are).
You’re right, since churches literally take a huge chunk out of their income each year, it may be possible that they are less able to give to charity in the first place.
I’m not sure a developing foetus can fully experience pain even then. The evidence just shows that development makes it impossible before a certain point. Since pain is subjective, it’s a difficult area of study. So scientists have focused on neural development. Here is more research.
" A March 2010 report from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists in the United Kingdom concluded similarly:
RCOG, 2010: In reviewing the neuroanatomical and physiological evidence in the fetus, it was apparent that connections from the periphery to the cortex are not intact before 24 weeks of gestation and, as most neuroscientists believe that the cortex is necessary for pain perception, it can be concluded that the fetus cannot experience pain in any sense prior to this gestation."
This doesn’t mean a foetus can experience pain after this point, only that it is impossible prior to it. There is evidence the foetus remains insentient in the womb.
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I can’t remember what I said in the yonder time of centuries gone by (or just probably over a month ago or so), but, yeah, it’s only during the 3rd trimester. But it’s the same thing with the heart beat: it doesn’t happen until only a certain point in time. Every part, including the gender, only appears after a time.
Can you prove this assertion?
Data from the Pew Research Center does not support your assertion.
If we can not get our basic facts correct, it is arrogant and just plain wrong to debate or arrive at any position concerning the individual rights of any female.
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WOW! For the longest time Atheism was… asserted to be a White, Middle Class, Male, thing. Love the reference…
Actually, data from the Pew Research Center says most atheists are male, as do other sources of data, though it’s possible the number may change based on which country you’re in. (See below.)
In fact, your source just compares certain aspects between male and female atheists, not how many there are of either gender.
10 facts about atheists | Pew Research Center
In the U.S., atheists are mostly men and are relatively young, according to the 2014 Religious Landscape Study. About seven-in-ten U.S. atheists are men (68%).
According to SecularSurvey.org:
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Out of nearly 34,000 participants, 57.8% were male, 40.3% were female, and 3.6% were transgender or gender nonconforming (79.6% were straight and 23.0% LGBTQ) Reality+Check±+Being+Nonreligious+in+America (squarespace.com)
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Out of 3,421 aged 18-24, 63.5% were male, 31.5% female, and 10.0% transgender or gender nonconforming (58.3% were straight and 44.5% LGBTQ) The+Tipping+Point+Generation±+America’s+Nonreligious+Youth.pdf (squarespace.com)
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Out of 891 black participants, 55.8% were male, 42.3% female, and 4.9% transgender or gender nonconforming (71.1% were straight and 32.7% LGBTQ) Black+Nonreligious+Americans±+A+Brief+from+the+U.S.+Secular+Survey.pdf (squarespace.com)
There’s also more showing said results.
If you cannot even use the right source correctly, then your position does not stand when looked at. Especially when you’re proven wrong. (I can collect MORE studies for you, if you want?)
Also, this isn’t about “the individual rights of any female,” it’s about how many atheists are male or female (or even transgender or gender nonconforming).
I’m Pro-Choice and I’m for women’s rights. What about the Pro-Life argument that is commonly used that the unborn child is being murdered? I have yet to find a good comment to use against that. I don’t think of it as murder. But I just can’t put it into words that will shut the Pro-Life Religious Zealots up.
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How far back do you want to go? All one is arguing is when a cell becomes human. Can it be argued to be human the moment a sperm enters an egg? How about an hour after. Once the zygot forms? Do we wait for the blastocyst? How about an hour before? Is every sperm sacred? Every egg? The distinction is arbitrary. Fact!: You do not remember your own birth., You have no memory of pain or pleasure. A lizard is more conscious.
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Wrong sort of argument. Genetically, the sperm and egg are ALREADY human, just like an egg is genetically a chicken. You should rather argue when it becomes a person - that could be at conception, though I would rather argue more for (1) when it’s heart starts beating OR (2) it’s brain is developed. One of the 2.