It’s unethical because you’re causing unnecessary pain, except in the few cases where the mother (or trans father)'s life is in danger. I remember hearing a “rule” that doctors usually (are supposed to) use:
First, do no harm.
If you are doing harm, you are being unethical.
Ethical or unethical behaviour.
Interesting…
They were kept “alive”… ethical? My POV? After birth, there are responsibilities and laws parents must adhere to (standards for care). Some fail at this regardless of the “child”, because it is the parent who is flawed. Same with fostering. Some (I hope the majority) do it with care and well-being in mind - others for the cheque. Abuses of everyone or anything can be found in today’s society.
Could a woman “abuse” abortion? Sure. I would wager that the largest portions of women do not and weigh this decision seriously.
——————-
Side note:
My cousin died at age nine, heart problem because of the Down’s Syndrome. Her parents were great, she had no siblings and of course she had me to play with. Mind you, at our young age, she was the first one in the box I’d push down a hill to test if it was safe. She also wrecked my “baby-alive doll” by feeding it mud.
… referring to aborting the fetus
Because once they are born, they will have a “pain free” existence? Or people alive, young and old, all die in a pain free manner?
First off, David, I did not know that Down Syndrome people have been placed in institutions, hidden away from the eyes of society a hundred years ago. That is quite appalling. But people were much more hateful back then than they are now, so I’m glad that things have changed.
Now, for the statistical stuff:
Down Syndrome Study Finds Families Are Happy - Disability Scoop
Blog - Women of Grace - www.womenofgrace.com
More than 3,000 (3,150) family members and people with the chromosomal disorder across the country were studied, with all respondents having a better out look on life. The vast majority of parents had a more positive outlook on life, while nearly 90% (88%) of siblings stated that they felt like better people. 97% of siblings were proud their Down Syndrome sibling. Almost all Down Syndrome survey respondents said that they with their lives (99%), themselves (97%), and their appearance (96%), with only 4% stating that they were sad with their life.
Because of the preconcieved notion of a worse life with Down Syndrome:
…pre-natal testing is eliminating more than 90 percent of unborn babies diagnosed with Down syndrome…
Again, I will accept your suggestion that unnecessary pain = unethical (for the sake of argument anyway).
Are late-term abortions that don’t cause pain unethical?
You can put me down as being super skeptical of that claim as well.
Indeed. I learned about 50 years ago that parents just live for advice from childless eggspurts. 
Did they do a survery of parents who attempted to abort once they discovered the fetus had Downs? Or just the ones who gave birth, and raised one?
Of course almost anyone would grow (as a person) and become more empathic if they lived on a daily basis with one with disabilities. That sure happened to me. Once I got married and became very exposed to those with disabilities I went from being a jerk who was basically intolerant of them to one more compassionate and caring.
My wife works with people with disabilities or behavioral issues. I want you to understand this coming from a person who has been directly exposed to parents of Downs … many feel extreme guilt and shame. Many of the same category wrap these children in a bubble and do not push them to develop and learn.
My wife has stated to me dozens of times “it is not the child that is the problem, it is the parents”.
You have good reason for that position.
Here is the story from Ontario.
FYI my wife worked in 2 of those institutions.
My wife avoids working with children, saying something to the effect of: “the problem with children is they come with parents, and parents suck”.
Meh.
I have distinct dislike of young children, who I see as a bunch of little psychos.
Parents with young children present become gibbering idiots.
Trivia; A friend and father of five once told me “People are really not interested in other people’s children” I was so relieved. I’d thought it was just me.
I never had a problem with children on set or in theatre. Mostly they are so used to “let’s pretend” that they could convincingly replicate emotions explained to them appropriate to their age level. Most kids have a tremendous empathy. They were eager to work and most of them with no baggage or star mania. Always an odd one or two, but if I was producing they got cut pronto, reshooting their scenes if necessary.
The parents though? Fuck me with a dead goat. Some of them were horrors. When I produced or directed and there were kids involved I stipulated an onset minder, PLUS a “green room” off set minder that was there, not to stop the kids overdosing on the candy we supplied but to quell the parental psychos. I refused to work with kids after 2001. Still do not.
The two worst I ever met were each aged two. My cousin’s son and my wife’s best friend’s daughter. On different days.
Each of the little turds teased my silkie terrier, so she bit them. No broken skin, lots of wailing while I comforted my little dog.
Oh, I forgot. I think I’ve mentioned what an insufferable little prig I was as a devout catholic teen. ----At 17, I used to take a bunch of kids from the local Catholic orphanage out on a Saturday afternoon.
Hard to describe bunch of institutionalised 12 year old boys. All I’ll say is that was a factor which helped me reach my decision not to have children.
I’m inclined to agree, as previously discussed if you take away a person’s autonomy over their own body, that is the definition of enslavement.
I also don’t think it’s practical to try and dictate reasons why a woman cannot seek a termination, the only caveat would be to avoid all unnecessary suffering, if the foetus could suffer its own death in any meaningful way.
This is not to say I wouldn’t personally find some reasons morally questionable, but that’s my business and my problem. I don’t have the right to arbitrarily inflict my subjective morality on others, to take away their autonomy over their own body, nor should I ever have that right.
The gender bias against women in certain cultures, needs to be addressed by creating societies that value men and women equally, and is best achieved by educating children to that end, not by enslaving the women who already exist in those cultures, by taking away their autonomy over their bodies.
The issue of seeking to terminate a pregnancy if the foetus is found to have a disability is a sensitive one, nevertheless, if we accept the moral rationale that a woman must have the right to choose, then the best course is that women are not asked to justify their decision over how they use their own bodies, especially just to calm my subjective moral sensibilities.
Beyond avoiding all unecessary suffering, the foetus can have no rights that subjugate the rights of the woman whose body it is developing in. Her motives are her business.
I can be outraged if I like, but that’s where my rights start and end.
You think a foetus that has down syndrome should have rights all other foetuses are denied?
You think it’s morally wrong to enslave women, by taking away their control of their body, by telling them they cannot seek a termination of a pregnancy, but then say it’s ok to do this if the foetus has down syndrome?
What if the woman is a girl if 12, raped by her drunken father?
A foetus with down syndrome is not the issue here, you’re just letting your emotions cloud the real issue. Why a woman seeks a termination is her business.
Do I sometimes wish abortions didn’t happen? Of course, and I even have the right to feel moral outrage, but that’s all I have the right to do.
Starting to question the motives of women seeking to terminate a pregnancy, is simply looking for reasons to enslave women to your own subjective moral worldview.
Why should anyone be allowed to take that right away from a woman, to exercise it themeselves?
Do you have any proof that a single late-term abortion doesn’t cause pain? Before I can answer that question, I need to know if they actually even exist.
My dude, David is the one that told me that! Bring it to him
I don’t know, because for some stupid reason, articles that talk about studies tend not to link to them, so it might be hard to find.
Huh. Very interesting. But I have to point out this - there will always be people on either side of the spectrum. Some will be good/happy/better/whatever. Some will be bad/sad/worse/whatever. Others will be in-between. However, there are averages, so when you get them, it will show which way they’re likely going to lean. But just because they have a higher chance to doesn’t mean that they WILL. Perhaps you also had a higher incidence of meeting guilty parents, which could provide confirmation bias?
Good to be able to look more into it, as well.
I like kids (not always), and parents are okay, I guess…
Really? Apparently I’m not normal lol
OK so you’ve established an impossible hurdle (I can’t prove I ate corn flakes for breakfast).
How about I modify my question to avoid the impossible hurdle you have constructed:
If I discovered a magic wand that when you wave it over a pregnant person, they aren’t pregnant anymore, and no pain is caused. Would this version of a late-term abortion be unethical?
NOTE: I have stated several times I am okay with the vast MAJORITY of abortions, so keep this in mind.
So then you also agree that a boy being ra.ped by an older woman, and her having a child and suing him for child support, is a violation of someone’s autonomy/take away their autonomy from their body, and is thus a form of enslavement as well?
How in the h.ell could a fetus “suffer its own death in any meaningful way”?
Here, I’ll give you an example in which it is EXTREMELY morally wrong. Actually, two technically, but they’re baiscally the same.
India often aborts female fetuses (I don’t really know about male ones) because their female, creating a divide in the gender.
China also aborts female fetuses, which creates a divide in the gender.
In both cases, girls were being unfairly aborted, creating a divide/gap that wouldn’t have existed otherwise.
When women/girls are actually being discriminated against, you really seem to not actually care…
Yes, there are cultures in which bias against women persists.
In some places, women aren’t allowed to drive.
In some places, women are stoned to death for being ra.ped.
In some places, female fetuses are unfairly aborted.
In some places, women are denied a fair education.
I could go on.
So tell me, how in the world is a country like America biased against women?
If you want people to retain the right to abort fetuses on the basis of their ability, then you should be fine with men (or trans women, depending on the case) being able to “financially abort” or abort their parenting rights, of their own will, if they don’t want to be parents. If you support men also having a choice, then I shall fully support your position.
There are some instances where it does cross. For example, fetal alcohol syndrome. There are many mothers (not a majority, thank goodness) who drink during their pregnancy, and even one time can cause damage. Most women know that it’s bad. If you realize, women should not be allowed to harm children they aren’t going to abort, and should be penalized for causing damage to another life. There is also the fact that the fetus isn’t her body - it’s another thing, with it’s own heartbeats, hiccups, etc. If she understood the damage caused by drinking while pregnant (even if all she knew was that it was bad), but still did it anyway, she would have crossed a line, yes?
There are many different kinds of rights. There is the feeling, the position, and the responsibility. The feeling is the outrage, like you say. The position is the law. The responsibility is accepting things you must do in exchange for rights. If you want to retain the right to abort, then you must be responsible about it.
No, I think it should have rights that are given to other fetuses - such as not getting aborted for their ability.
Yes, it’s morally wrong to enslave women. And once again, I am for the vast majority of abortions. If they want to seek a termination of a pregnancy, more power to them. However, there are some cases in which it’s wrong to do so. And it’s not suddenly okay to rid the world of down syndrome children en mass abortion just because of preconcieved notions. It’s never been actually okay or a good idea to perform Male Gen.ital Mutilation/male circumcision (MGM), but people used to, and still do, think it’s a good idea because of preconcieved notions.
Then she can abort. Ra.ped women (and trans men) can choose to abort if the ra.pe results in a pregnancy, because they had no choice in the pregnancy.
But what about situations of underage boys being ra.ped (statutory ra.pe) by older/adult women, who get pregnant and sue them for child support? Is it suddenly okay to “enslave” a person?
No, a fetus with down syndrome, is not the problem, but people aborting them en mass BECAUSE they have down syndrome is the problem.
The reason I find abortions so appalling is because I, as a person who can get pregnant, would never do that to another being/person. I would never take away their life just because I forgot to use a pill. I wouldn’t even do it if I was ra.ped by a man or trans woman. I’m a trans guy, so I guess I would huddle inside, but I would never be able to carry it out. I can’t even boil lobsters alive. I don’t feel like making people suffer (or other animals), and so I find it morally wrong to do so. Now, I find abortions that aren’t late-term not as morally indefensible, mainly because they don’t cause the baby pain. I understand that some abortions might accidentally be late term, but that was an accident. Now, even though I would refuse to abort (unless if I was about to die or something), it doesn’t mean that I stop other physically/genetically-female people from aborting at all. I’m fine with most abortions - as long as they aren’t filled with hate, bias, whatever.
Like I said, I’m okay with most. I just find some overtly appalling enough that it really just crosses a line.
And who said that I was trying to enslave women?
First off, not taking it away even mostly. Just taking away hate.
Second off, I wouldn’t use it. But I understand that just because I don’t like it doesn’t mean that I take it away fully or even mostly - barely at all.
No, that wouldn’t be unethical. It late-term abortions didn’t cause pain, then they wouldn’t be unethical.
