Atheism and Abortion

[David_Killens]

@Drew

So tell me, how in the world is a country like America biased against women?

[Drew]

Here’s something you missed:

• Men work more hours than women do. For example, if I remember correctly, men in a certain profession work twice as many hours as women.

• Men tend to work in higher-paying jobs more often than women.

• Another study, from an official organization, found that men worked 57% of hours (14% more than women), and yet made up almost 94% of workplace deaths. Men work more dangerous jobs. And, often, men may get payraises because of the job danger, such as my grandpa, who is a plumber, but ended up getting $90,000 a year because of his having to work with chemical spills and stuff.

• Men take less vacations. If I remember correctly, women take vacation every 10 months, while men take vacation every 12 months.

• Men take less sick days than women.

• Men ask for raises more, and push for them more.

• Women not only use their pay, they also use much of their husband’s (or boyfriend’s).

• Men retire later and die earlier, meaning that women get longer retirements.

• Women own 51% of wealth and 52% of private wealth, and it’s expected to raise to 2/3 in a decade or two.

• Men make up a larger portion of the workforce.

• Men pay 60% more taxes than women do.

• Women of a certain age actually earn more than men of that same age bracket.

• Even though women work less on average, people are starting to pay them more (in the name of “equity,” which isn’t equality, but rather equal results).

• More.

If you can include this in the number, and women end up being paid less than men, then I’ll believe you.

[Whitefire13]

@Drew

I read your posts and responses.

Comparing American women rights with those of Countries that run under “theocratic” laws or outlooks - why not compare with other countries that don’t give a fuck and elect women Prime Ministers or leaders? Value is the “equalizer”. Color, race, sex, gender - equal in value - the person themselves may not be. In other words, why care if Obama was black or Kamala is a woman and mixed? Or Trump a white male? How are they as people?

Countries that prefer boys over girls have valued boys over girls. It’s the boys who bring status and security. This attitude is deeply rooted in their culture (taught behaviour) and economy.

As far as a parent selecting whether or not to “keep” a Downs Syndrome fetus…we are moving in the direction of full out genetic selection. Blue eyes over brown? Hair color? Genetic probabilities for later health issues? Forget abortion for selective choice - eventually this will be accomplished beforehand.

You will always find injustice and inequality. Hopefully, as society moves toward a more inclusive, valued citizenship - you’ll just need a bigger microscope.

[Nyarlathotep]

And the cocoon has opened! Revealing a misogynist; and I’m guessing that didn’t surprise anyone, as we’ve heard all this non-sense before.

I guess my only surprise was all the bullshit statistics. But in hindsight even that should have been obvious.

[Whitefire13]

I knew once David posted that chart, these facts and figures would pop up.

Again, culture and value.

Driving truck, predominately male, $45k annual vs. teaching primary school (25 6 yr olds) predominantly female, 25k annual.

Many a male supports his wife and kids and her “job” is to raise the kids (maybe work part time) - big societal value there when she’s just a housewife or “stay at home mom” (or a predominately religious culture with clear cut “roles”).

Now, there is nothing wrong with any of this. Each family, couple, can decide their work, childcare, amount of children they want, etc.

Personally - I like choice. Choices in jobs, careers, education, association, pay and time - I’ve had waitressing jobs that were weird hours for less pay, but was useful to my schedule, to a high-paying 9-5.

The best the law or governments can do is set out equal access…housing, employment, marriage, etc.

As far as bias and prejudices- well that’s a personal choice, now isn’t it?

[David_Killens]

@Drew You left out the fact that men’s suicide rate is 3.56x more often than women.

Source https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/

I put this out with a massive tinge of sarcasm because you are just straw manning.

Excuses, excuses, excuses against a great injustice.

[David_Killens]

@Drew

So then you also agree that a boy being ra.ped by an older woman, and her having a child and suing him for child support, is a violation of someone’s autonomy/take away their autonomy from their body, and is thus a form of enslavement as well?

I agree.

What is the per capita number of male minors who suffer this injustice? Compared to the per capita number of female minors who get raped and become pregnant?

You are using an incredibly small example to support your position. Incredibly small. Insanely small.

[Drew]

@Whitefire13

@Drew

I read your posts and responses.

Comparing American women rights with those of Countries that run under “theocratic” laws or outlooks - why not compare with other countries that don’t give a fuck and elect women Prime Ministers or leaders? Value is the “equalizer”. Color, race, sex, gender - equal in value - the person themselves may not be. In other words, why care if Obama was black or Kamala is a woman and mixed? Or Trump a white male? How are they as people?

Because I am comparing American women to women of other countries.

@Whitefire13

Countries that prefer boys over girls have valued boys over girls. It’s the boys who bring status and security. This attitude is deeply rooted in their culture (taught behaviour) and economy.

Yes. And countries that prefer girls over boys have/do value girls over boys.

@Whitefire13

As far as a parent selecting whether or not to “keep” a Downs Syndrome fetus…we are moving in the direction of full out genetic selection. Blue eyes over brown? Hair color? Genetic probabilities for later health issues? Forget abortion for selective choice - eventually this will be accomplished beforehand.

But is that a good thing?

I think not.

It will end up with engineering what is claimed the superior race, and depending on who it is, that vision changes.

@Whitefire13

You will always find injustice and inequality. Hopefully, as society moves toward a more inclusive, valued citizenship - you’ll just need a bigger microscope.

Yes, but that doesn’t mean that it can’t be changed to become more equal.

[Drew]

@Nyarlathotep

And the cocoon has opened! Revealing a misogynist; and I’m guessing that didn’t surprise anyone, as we’ve heard all this non-sense before.

Perhaps you haven’t heard it enough?

@Nyarlathotep

I guess my only surprise was all the bullshit statistics. But in hindsight even that should have been obvious.

They aren’t “bullsh*t statistics.” They are actual statistics. Instead of just instantly knocking them down, perhaps actually think about why you keep on hearing them?

Also, how am I a misogynist? Every time I get called a sexist I ask for proof, but no one ever tells me why (they called me a sexist). Perhaps you will be different?

(NOTE: If you decide to call me a misogynist for debunking the gender pay gap, then please, enlighten me as to how that’s misogyny.)

@Whitefire13

I knew once David posted that chart, these facts and figures would pop up.

Again, culture and value.

Yes.

@Whitefire13

Driving truck, predominately male, $45k annual vs. teaching primary school (25 6 yr olds) predominantly female, 25k annual.

And that’s just one example.

@Whitefire13

Many a male supports his wife and kids and her “job” is to raise the kids (maybe work part time) - big societal value there when she’s just a housewife or “stay at home mom” (or a predominately religious culture with clear cut “roles”).

Yes. In fact, that reminded me, men work full-time much more often than women, while women work part-time much more often than men.

@Whitefire13

Now, there is nothing wrong with any of this. Each family, couple, can decide their work, childcare, amount of children they want, etc.

Personally - I like choice. Choices in jobs, careers, education, association, pay and time - I’ve had waitressing jobs that were weird hours for less pay, but was useful to my schedule, to a high-paying 9-5.

Exactly! People make different life choices, which results in different results, which is perfectly fine.

@Whitefire13

The best the law or governments can do is set out equal access…housing, employment, marriage, etc.

Yes. If equality is achieved - meaning equal rights - then society is fair. Equity - meaning equal outcomes - on the other hand, is not about making society fair. Equality is equality of opprotunity. Equity is equality of outcomes for different things.

@Whitefire13

As far as bias and prejudices- well that’s a personal choice, now isn’t it?

Yes, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t consequences for it.

@David_Killens

@Drew You left out the fact that men’s suicide rate is 3.56x more often than women.

Source Suicide statistics | AFSP

Why would I bring up male suicide for this? That would make little to no sense.

If you want to talk about other things, then I will. But please refrain from being random.

@David_Killens

I put this out with a massive tinge of sarcasm because you are just straw manning.

Excuses, excuses, excuses against a great injustice.

And exactly how am I straw manning?

[Nyarlathotep]

@David_Killens

What is the per capita number of…

Good luck getting an answer to that from someone who aparently doesn’t know what that is:

@Drew

Here’s something you missed:…
Men make up a larger portion of the workforce.

[Whitefire13]

@Drew

I am comparing American women to women of other countries.

OK… Canadian women are making just 96 cents for every $1 earned by men with the same qualifications, job and experience, something Glassdoor is calling the “adjusted pay gap.” In the U.S., women are making 95 cents for every $1 earned by comparably qualified men. Fairly equitable.

Women in Canada earn less than men — even for the same job: Glassdoor - National | Globalnews.ca

in heterosexual households where the woman is the main breadwinner, the more she earns, the less her partner will contribute to the housework. And, of course, to the extent that women scale back their career ambitions in order to focus on domestic matters – childcare plus housework – this inequality at home perpetuates inequality at work. (“It’s not a glass ceiling, it’s a sticky floor,” to quote the title of one book addressing that question.) Meanwhile, everywhere, men get special credit for the chores they do do, because their contribution gets assessed at “the going rate”, as the sociologist Arlie Hochschild put it in her 1989 book The Second Shift: if a man does a bit more than the notional average man in his community, he’s viewed as exceptionally helpful. AND

“A well-managed home is still a gendered expectation, which is why it’s so very difficult for men to get home control disease – they just don’t attach it to their value.” A man who places a high priority on domestic cleanliness is just a clean man; a woman who doesn’t is a bad woman. Researchers argue that this probably explains the tendency for men to do less housework, and women a greater proportion, as the woman takes on more of the breadwinning: both sexes, subconsciously disturbed by their violation of traditional gender norms, start acting hyper-conventionally to compensate. It also helps explain why women usually assume the extra burden of the “worry work” – the job of keeping track of what needs to be done in the first place – while men merely pick tasks from this readymade to-do list.
Dirty secret: why is there still a housework gender gap? | Inequality | The Guardian

So is the “comparison” via a male dominated religious society a lesson in “Shut up woman! You got it good - for fuck’s sake, we allow you to drive, and get an education and even work outside the home…”

[Whitefire13]

@Drew

@Whitefire13

… as bias and prejudices- well that’s a personal choice, now isn’t it?

Yes, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t consequences for it.

No shit, Sherlock. Quite frankly, I’m not even sure what you are bitching about. For whatever reason, you’ve got your head into a woman’s/men’s rights, blah blah blah… both sides can have extremes that are harmful and meant to push down the “other”.

[David_Killens]

@Drew

And exactly how am I straw manning?

From Wiki:

A straw man (sometimes written as strawman) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the proper idea of argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted.

I posted a chart that was a response to your statement:

@Drew

So tell me, how in the world is a country like America biased against women?

And in response to my chart, you discussed examples of possible inequalities against males.

You ducked the “a country like America biased against women?” issue and went to male issues.

[boomer47]

@David_Killens

You ducked the “a country like America biased against women?” issue and went to male issues.

Yair. As for misogyny; If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like duck-----

[Sheldon]

@Drew

So then you also agree that a boy being ra.ped by an older woman

That’s a rather ludicrous non sequitur? What has that to do with what I said?

@Sheldon

I’m inclined to agree, as previously discussed if you take away a person’s autonomy over their own body, that is the definition of enslavement.

I don’t see your response as relevant to my point in any way sorry?

@Drew

How in the h.ell could a fetus “suffer its own death in any meaningful way”?

I give up, how?

@Drew

Here, I’ll give you an example in which it is EXTREMELY morally wrong. Actually, two

Why? I already explained that subjective opinions on a woman’s reason for seeking a termination shouldn’t affect her right to autonomy over her own body .

@Drew

India often aborts female fetuses (I don’t really know about male ones) because their female, creating a divide in the gender.

China also aborts female fetuses, which creates a divide in the gender.

I responded to this, but for some reason you’ve ignored it? I’ll quote my response again then.

@Sheldon

The gender bias against women in certain cultures, needs to be addressed by creating societies that value men and women equally, and is best achieved by educating children to that end, not by enslaving the women who already exist in those cultures, by taking away their autonomy over their bodies.

@Drew

No, a fetus with down syndrome, is not the problem, but people aborting them en mass BECAUSE they have down syndrome is the problem.

I’m confused, all you’ve done is try and move the goal posts by adding the words on masses, which is dishonest as you hadn’t said that originally. However you’re still missing the point, a woman must have autonomy over her body, you may find her reasons for seeking a termination repugnant, so what? Some people think homosexuality is immoral, that doesn’t mean they get to decide how others use their own bodies.

@Drew

The reason I find abortions so appalling is because I, as a person who can get pregnant, would never do that to another being/person.

Another straw man, as no one has suggested you should?

@Drew

I would never take away their life just because I forgot to use a pill

Wow, the straw man fallacies are coming thick and fast now. Firstly, and I think I’ve made this clear by now, I don’t care what reason a woman has for seeking a termination, even of I found it repugnant that doesn’t alter the fact that seeking to enslave woman based on my subjective views is immoral.

@Drew

I don’t feel like making people suffer

Who’s suffering?

@Drew

I’m fine with most abortions - as long as they aren’t filled with hate, bias, whatever.

That’s just bizarre…and yet another straw man fallacy.

@Drew

@Sheldon

Starting to question the motives of women seeking to terminate a pregnancy, is simply looking for reasons to enslave women to your own subjective moral worldview.

Like I said, I’m okay with most. I just find some overtly appalling enough that it really just crosses a line

So what?

@Drew

And who said that I was trying to enslave women?

If you take away a woman’s autonomy over her body, that is the definition of enslavement.

@Drew

First off, not taking it away even mostly. Just taking away hate.

What are you talking about? Who on earth has suggested abortions involve hate? That’s a ludicrous straw man no sequitur?

@Drew

Second off, I wouldn’t use it. But I understand that just because I don’t like it doesn’t mean that I take it away fully or even mostly - barely at all.

So you would want to take it away then? As I said that wouldxdnslave women by definition.

1. Your subjective opinion about a woman’s reason for seeking a termination, doesn’t and shouldn’t affect their right to exercise autonomy over their own body.
2. Coming up with examples you find objectionable is moot, as you either accept women should have autonomy over their own bodies, or you’re happy to take it away based on your subjective moral views, thus enslaving them, by definition.

So tell me, how in the world is a country like America biased against women?

Sigh, another ridiculous straw man fallacy, since I’ve never made any such claim. However it’s absurd to think there is no discrimination against women in the USA, just because there are countries where it is more prevalent. A false dichotomy fallacy if ever there was one.

[Sheldon]

@Drew

Women own 51% of wealth and 52% of private wealth, and it’s expected to raise to 2/3 in a decade or two.

I find that claim highly dubious, even in that collection of ludicrous rhetoric and hyperbole.

@Drew

Men pay 60% more taxes than women do.

Another star plucked from the ether, but even assuming it were true, if men earn more then you’d expect them to be taxed more.

@Drew

Women of a certain age actually earn more than men of that same age bracket.

I’m going to hurt myself if I laugh this hard for much longer. Can we have some citations for these endless claims please?

@Drew

Even though women work less on average, people are starting to pay them more

More than?

@Drew

@Whitefire13

Forget abortion for selective choice - eventually this will be accomplished beforehand.

But is that a good thing?

I think not

Care to explain why?

@Drew

They aren’t “bullsh*t statistics.” They are actual statistics. Instead of just instantly knocking them down, perhaps actually think about why you keep on hearing them?

Sorry I’m with Nyarl, they seemed like bulkshitvto me as well, some more than others, but not a single citation for any of them.

@Drew

please refrain from being random.

Oh fuck, irony overload…

@Drew

And exactly how am I straw manning?

Relentlessly…

[Whitefire13]

@Sheldon

@Drew

I would never take away their life just because I forgot to use a pill

Wow, the straw man fallacies are coming thick and fast now. Firstly, and I think I’ve made this clear by now, I don’t care what reason a woman has for seeking a termination, even of I found it repugnant that doesn’t alter the fact that seeking to enslave woman based on my subjective views is immoral.

WOW!!! BUT you would encourage “men’s rights” to NOT financially support BECAUSE THEY DIDN’T WEAR A CONDOM…

[Whitefire13]

Simple terms so you understand. Sperm meets egg. Regardless of what each party may or MAY NOT have done to avoid this reality.

WOMAN’S BODY HOSTS the potential life. it experiences the hormonal and physical changes, She decides whether or not to do this. BOTH parties once the decision is made, and the baby is born, is responsible for the “person”… the care and financial responsibility. BOTH.

[Drew]

@David_Killens

@Drew

So then you also agree that a boy being ra.ped by an older woman, and her having a child and suing him for child support, is a violation of someone’s autonomy/take away their autonomy from their body, and is thus a form of enslavement as well?

I agree.

What is the per capita number of male minors who suffer this injustice? Compared to the per capita number of female minors who get raped and become pregnant?

You are using an incredibly small example to support your position. Incredibly small. Insanely small.

First off, why are you playing a game of who has it worse? Both are bad, no?

Second off, here are some statistics:

• There are about 17.7 births among 1,000 women aged 15 to 19

• That would be 1.77% [my math]

Teen Pregnancy Rates by State 2021 (worldpopulationreview.com)

• In 2018, the birthrate for girls aged 10 to 14 was 0.2, having gone down from 1.4 in 1991

• Or, 0.02% of girls aged 10 to 14 [my math]

• Birth rate 10-14 year-old girls U.S. 1991-2018 | Statista

• Nearly 3 million women in the US have experienced Ra.pe-Related Pregnancy (RRP) in their lifetime

• Around 18 million women in the US have experienced va.ginal rape in their lifetime

• 16.67% of US female ra.pe victims ended in pregnancy, while 83.33% did not [my math]

Understanding Pregnancy Resulting from Rape in the United States |Violence Prevention|Injury Center|CDC

… It drew on other research to conclude that “at least half of all babies born to minor women are fathered by adult men”, and that “although relatively small proportions of 13–14-year-olds have had intercourse, those who become sexually active at an early age are especially likely to have experienced coercive sex: Seventy-four percent of women who had intercourse before age 14 and 60% of those who had sex before age 15 report having had a forced sexual experience”.

Pregnancy from rape - Wikipedia

If half of all babies born to minor women were of adult men, that would mean:

• Around 0.885% of women aged 15 to 19 are victims of statutory ra.pe [my math]

• Around 0.01% of girls aged 10 to 14 are victims of statutory ra.pe [my math]

Now, onto the male statutory ra.pe one:

IMPORTANT NOTE: There are currently no actual statistics on the prevalence of male statutory victims overall, and while there is some research on this, male statutory ra.pe victims who are forced to pay child support haven’t been studied either. I will, however, provide the current research, along with some cases.

• 94% of known offenders of male statutory rape victims are female.

• The median age difference between female perpetrators and male victims was 9 years, while the median age difference between male perpetrators and female victims was 6 years.

…More than 75% of female offenders of male victims were at least 6 years older
than their victims.

…At least half of the male offenders of female victims were 6 or more years older
than their victims.

01-StatutoryRape Bulletin.qxd (ojp.gov)

…Of the abused, 81% were male, and 19% were female, 22% were younger than age 11, 51% were between the ages of 11 and 14, and 27% were between the ages of 15 and 17 years when first abused. Within the youngest age group, 64% of abused children were male, while within the older age groups, 85% were male.

…A further analysis by the John Jay College found that, among clerics with a single accusation of abuse, the victims were more evenly divided between male and female and were more likely to be older. Abusers with greater numbers of victims abused a higher proportion of boys.

Catholic Church sex abuse cases in the United States - Wikipedia

Here are 3 cases of male statutory ra.pe victims having to pay child support:

STATUTORY RAPE VICTIM ORDERED TO PAY CHILD SUPPORT - Chicago Tribune

Male Statutory Rape Victim Nick Olivas Must Pay Child Support (businessinsider.com)

Court Tells Youth to Support Child He Fathered at Age 13 - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

[David_Killens]

@Drew

First off, why are you playing a game of who has it worse? Both are bad, no?

Please go back and read your posts. Most of your arguments and defense of your position is heavily sprinkled with “they had it worse” scenarios.

In sarcasm I pointed out the male suicide rate, in order for you to add to your straw-man war-chest of complaints.