This is an argument from incredulity.
No really I’m saying that your brain is broken so your reasoning and logic.
I keep saying EVIDENCE EVIDENCE EVIDENCE
and you people keep saying that is an invalid argument because me and my atheist buddies think that a proper argument must supersede the existence of the blah blah blah with more armchair atheist nonsense.
All atoms
All light
time
ATP
That is real stuff buddy
Stuff that none of you and all your armchair arguments can explain
so you puff your pipe, make a joke then calmly suggest that “chemistry can explain it”.
Of course “chemistry can explain it”. That’s called EVIDENCE OF DESIGN just like a set of drawings is evidence of the design of an aircraft.
Have you even looked at all these atoms that must have somehow come together to make ATP the very first time? Probably not because you are probably much more interested in the premise of having the proper construct of even forming a rational argument by precluding the previously formed condition of the initial assumption thereby compelling an even truer understanding of what it even means to understand that one can even obtain a true amount of sufficient of anything much less the condition that design must nec… did anyone even keep reading all that? get it, I made a little joke cause he made a little joke with his Douglas Adams joke.
Saying that the chemistry of life is not evidence of design is like saying that writing is not evidence of an author.
Nicely done! gold star
you got me. I will stop saying it.
It does just a little more than zero to move any needle on any rational argument.
But thanks for keeping me honest!
If the intricacy of life seems so complicated that it must have been created by God . . . then God must be more intricate and more complicated.
If so, then who created God?
If God always existed, then why not skip a step and say that the Universe always existed.
Cosmologists have never said that the Universe came from nothing. The idea that the Big Bang came from nothing is a religious position, not a position from physics and/or cosmology. The Big Bang is the start of the current presentation of the Universe . . . not that the Universe came from nothing.
If the intricacy of life seems so complicated that it must have been created by God . . .
[I’m claiming that it is a proven fact that the universe must necessarily have been designed but I’m following you here]
then God must be more intricate and more complicated.
Sure I agree and for the reasons you specify.
If so, then who created God?
If God always existed, then why not skip a step and say that the Universe always existed.
Cosmologists have never said that the Universe came from nothing. The idea that the Big Bang came from nothing is a religious position, not a position from physics and/or cosmology. The Big Bang is the start of the current presentation of the Universe . . . not that the Universe came from nothing.
So, first, some dude just schooled me on the whole “Universe came from nothing” line. I understand a lot of people don’t believe that so I’ll stop saying it.
Second, good stuff. I’d like to get into all that “how did it all start” stuff, but here is really the place for provable fact like the provable fact that our Universe is designed.
But my overall argument remains unchanged.
The Universe must have been designed by high intelligence based upon proper evaluation of the totality of the evidence.
Think of it this way. Proof that something exists is not proof of a singular source.
The US and other governments see UFOs sometimes. Are they sensor malfunctions, some other nation state with better tech or aliens? We don’t know. All they do know is it is unidentified.
This is a good point. @sourcecodewizard, if a designer existed why wasn’t he/she designed? Richard Dawkins as well as other philosophers make this point well. It is much more complex to have our reality and an infinite god than just our reality. You are upping the complexity, potentially infinitely by adding your creator. Why do you assume that the matter and energy couldn’t have always existed, but you believe that god always existed? Why does our universe necessitate a creator, but not the creator itself? This is just an infinite regression. The fact is we are ignorant, we don’t know. We have never measured the designer designing. Notice that the only way out of this is to add more unmeasurable and unfalsifiable claims about this designer.
This is the problem with unfalsifiable claims is that it just leads to either more unfounded claims or logical fallacies.
Major premise: Some god could exist.
Minor Premise: The universe exists and is complex.
Therefore: It must be designed and god exists.
Strawman killt. Try this one:
Major premise: We know with certainty that aircraft are designed by intelligent beings
Minor Premise: ATP production (pre cellular) involves cams, gears and solidstate proton pumps
Therefore: The universe must be designed
We have not, and cannot measure this design, because it is unfalsifiable.
Same goes for trees, cars really people for that matter.
You guys constantly do the same thing and make it sound like reasoning. Situational acceptance of what constitutes “evidence”. I mean, can we prove if any of this is real? Can we prove that what you see as green is what I see as green? I figured we were all adults here and not just subjects of never philosophical debate on what the word “the” means and how it affects the overall argument.
You know, the science guys.
Big bang, periodic table. That is real life evidence of design just like finding a page with writing on it is evidence that somebody wrote it. You want more evidence, go look at ATP. These guys are peddling nonsense disguised with arguments twisted into circles.
Nobody farted and made an airplane because, hey take a look in the sky dude, it is an airplane that really does exist. And you can see it is designed in about 1 whole second. Exactly enough time needed to, you know, look at it.
Also humans can look at science and see that it was designed.
Except the ones that are brainwashed (or ignorant, etc.)
I sometimes feel like I’m trying to talk to a wall when I try to engage with theists. I didn’t use to think that using reason was futile, but I’m starting to change my view.
This is a good point. @sourcecodewizard, if a designer existed why wasn’t he/she designed? Richard Dawkins as well as other philosophers make this point well. It is much more complex to have our reality and an infinite god than just our reality. You are upping the complexity, potentially infinitely by adding your creator. Why do you assume that the matter and energy couldn’t have always existed, but you believe that god always existed? Why does our universe necessitate a creator, but not the creator itself? This is just an infinite regression. The fact is we are ignorant, we don’t know. We have never measured the designer designing. Notice that the only way out of this is to add more unmeasurable and unfalsifiable claims about this designer.
No, there are many designers who design in private without being “measured”. Does that make their design any less designed?
They are not unfalsifiable claims any more than a claim that an airplane is designed. I consider that an airplane is designed a proven fact not an unfalsifiable claim. The same for design.
This is the problem with unfalsifiable claims is that it just leads to either more unfounded claims or logical fallacies.
That one is just you guys constantly moving the goal posts on what does and does not constitute proof. Is the big bang “proven”? Is the period table “proven”? Is fusion in stars “proven”? Is the existence of ATP “proven”?
We can play semantics day and night without resolving anything but at the end of it all is the evidence of our universe from the big bang to ATP sitting right in front of you.
And if you cannot see it, that’s because your brain is not correctly using reasoning.
I have not addressed that point because it is completely irrelevant to proof that the universe is designed.
I sometimes feel like I’m trying to talk to a wall when I try to engage with theists. I didn’t use to think that using reason was futile, but I’m starting to change my view.
So use then use reasoning to show how ATP got here.
I would really like to know.
Please provide attributes for this designer.
Highly intelligent.
Is it humanoid, mechanical, non material? In or out of space/time? Does it possess the omni-suite of powers? Did it have a beginning? Will it have an end? Does it currently interact with us? Have dominion over us?
Valid questions that I would enjoy pursuing elsewhere.
None of them are, however, relevant to the issue of design.
Here I am sticking to provable fact.
An alleged designer who is not testable, quantifiable, or independently verifiable is as good as a non existent designer.
In general not at all since the design itself can still be of value regardless of ANY quality of the designer. In fact do we not typically evaluate a design independent of any designer?
But in this case it is easier because concluding the existence of a designer of the universe is as valid as the existence of authors based upon the existence of books.
I, for one, see @CyberLN ‘s request as very pertinent here where the rest of us taking you seriously is concerned.
Except for my mountains of evidence in the form of the periodic table, ATP, the entire known universe and all of science. You know evidence that, yes, I keep repeating. EVIDENCE EVIDENCE
It really is important, maybe you should look into getting some.
You say god(s) exist. I say that I don’t believe you. How and when did you prove that my lack of belief is nonsense? Are you asserting that I actually do believe you?
No you don’t have to believe me why would that matter?
Facts are facts, evidence is evidence.
I started studying the brain in my mid twenties trying to understanding consciousness to apply to computers. Early on, it became obvious that the whole thing is designed. But all my brain research still had to contend with the effects of evolution. That is why ATP is so important because it is pre-cellular and virtually all cells use it.
When I started seeing videos of ATP production was when I realized how silly the whole thing is.
All those atoms have to form into place by themselves, I mean, are you people even serious?
And that’s when I knew how bad the brainwashing is.
Hmmm, not relevant? I asked them based on what you’ve been typing. They were not pulled from thin air. Must necessarily have been designed? Fact?
The only thing we can infer about the designer(s) is high intelligence and whatever else we can infer from the structure of the design.
Aside from that, I really don’t know so all I can do is speculate. Your point is well taken and yes, that is not easy to explain, but it does not really change any part of my argument.
Here, I am focusing on provable fact, like the fact that our universe must necessarily have been designed in order to exist.
you’re just another asshole who thinks they know better than an entire group of people. It makes you feel important, or even special.
No dude, I’m the asshole that knows how to draw logical conclusions from mountains of evidence. Plus I’m the asshole that knows when my arithmetic is accurate.
I’m just the logic guy, don’t shoot the messenger.
It’s not “brainwashing”, it’s common sense.
Call it anything you want but whatever you call it, it makes people stop using reasoning about certain things and instead start believing utter nonsense argument after utter nonsense argument. And it spreads. It also exists on a spectrum. Some people are so far gone that no amount of evidence and reasoning could possibly convince them otherwise. They are religious Atheist fanatics who cannot be swayed by reasoning or evidence. Others just are not sure.
I’m here to tell you that you can be more certain that this universe was designed by intelligence than you can that your car was designed by intelligence.
And, for the record, I am not saying I can’t believe you cannot see my argument so I must be correct but instead I am saying that my arithmetic is provably accurate and I know it is.
That is why I can see that your arithmetic is not accurate.
My argument has nothing to do with your point of view and the only incredulity here is that you people simply fail to admit that your arithmetic is provably incorrect.
if you carry on shouting the same things over and over at folks, I will conclude that you are not here to have a conversation or to debate.
You mean words like evidence, logic and reasoning.
I have to keep repeating them because many people here fail to understand how important they are.
Simply taking up space by engaging in repetition is unacceptable.
Nice. I cannot defeat your mountains of evidence so, instead of refuting it, I will instead scold you for insisting that the truth is, in fact true. Is anyone even listening to the garbage from this dude?
If you continue there will be consequences.
OOhhh, sounds ominous.
Hey guy, I’m not the one who is brainwashed here, I’m just the guy pointing it out.
Instead of getting pissed at the dude who is pointing it out, maybe you should do something about all these brainwashed people. I’m just saying, it looks like there are a lot of them here. And some of them are really screwed up in the head. Bad.
So maybe focus your energy on all those irrational brainwashed people.
Thank you