Why don't you believe?

Debate Room
241

Lower back pain? Bummer.

I have intermittent back pain at the thoracic level

Over the years, I’ve tried several things, including physiotherapy and analgesics. Both helped a bit at the time. Prescription analgesics were fine as long as I didn’t mind being off my face.

At one point my very conservative uncle recommended this Vietnamese acupuncturist. One treatment, no more pain,and for years.

Came back again after I retired,quite severe. I was either out of it from the pills or throwing up with the pain. My family doctor opined that “a good chiropractor can work wonders” In desperation, I went to this bloke. Felt a bit better after the first session. After the second session, the pain was gone didn’t return for over 10 years.Recently, it has returned. If the pain gets strong, I take a couple of pills and go and lie down.

Having said all that, I feel I should add a couple of caveats about the alternative treatments I tried:

As far as I’m aware, there is no science behind either acupuncture or chiropractic.

How then how did they work? Did they work?

My best guess; a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy***.IE had treatment, pain gone, THEREFORE the treatment removed the pain.

Plus the placebo effect.

From my time as an army medic, I became convinced that the placebo effect CAN work, but is unreliable.

**IMO one of THE fallacies found in religious/spiritual beliefs going back to the neolithic EG Shaman does an energetic little dance around the fire whilst praying for rain. Shortly after, it rains. Obviously the shaman has made it rain with his dance and prayers. .

Most egregiously in the present day: Before a person can be canonised, the catholic church requires two verified miracles. That means a person must have prayed to the dead person up for canonisation and a miracle has occurred attributable to the dead person’s intercession [with god]. I have no idea how the church can possibly make such a claim, but they’ve been getting away with it for centuries.

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And it was three before they gave the torturing bitch sainthood. They lowered it for her. The fucking Pope should die in one of her caring clinics. His pain will bring him closer to God.

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I can relate to the throwing up part. I worked as a high rise window cleaner in my early thirties.

Hauling up 30 stories of thick rope 2 to 3 times a day is a good work out and sheer murder on the lower back. But the pay was decent.

Eventually I got to a point where I started dry heaving from the pain - along with an uncontrollable racing heart - which I went to the E.R. to have looked at.

It was then that I learned something about the “apex” of the heart. This is not the pace maker of the heart, but it is where the majority of the thrust occurs during the heart beat.

So, I took time off work and learned to relax my apex. The pain in the sacroiliac went away along with the inflammation - I found an easier job - and now I’m fat (moderately - I could stand to lose a good 20 pounds).

Luckily, my lower back is now strong enough that I can get an hour of running in at the end of the day. And no pills and no back pain.

244

Bollocks, any fool knows you need crystals for that to work.

Now that’s how you do sarcasm… :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

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245

And that is the religious context I described, belief without evidence. And according to the bible, jesus did not die for anyone. He accepted having to have a bad weekend so he could get promoted as vice-pres of Heaven Inc, and is now up there enjoying tequila shots and listening to Jim Croce.

And that is motivation.

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246

If there’s anything in your heart but blood and muscle tissue I’d get it checked out.

Is it an invasive procedure?

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Well that might have some credence if you could offer anything approaching a cogent explanation for your claims, and sufficient objective evidence, but like all religious claims, when they are exposed to critical rational thinking they are then presented as woo woo but with some sort of hidden esoteric meaning.

For instance your peddling Buddhism as offering a better life experience, and uplift, as are christians, and they make precisely the same claims you do, that you must first believe and use faith in place of objective evidence, (albeit you claim it’s a different type of faith), then eventually when you have invested heavily in this faith you will inexplicably see that it is valid.

It’s a hook religions use when what they are selling is no longing compulsory, but a choice.

Incidentally I was very careful to ensure that all of the claims I assigned to my meditation that have health benefits can be supported by objective evidence, that’s the difference. Re-read my post and you will see that I never bought into the woo woo claims assigned to it. Even the placebo effect is supported by a massive weight of objective evidence. All of the effects as well as the cause have natural explanations. Using your mind to focus exclusively on and control your breathing (as one example) will help you relax, and as you practice this it becomes possible to relax almost at will, and the health benefits of a lowered heart rate and blood pressure need nothing woo woo to explain them.

By comparison you have been unable to offer any objective evidence, and your claims and assertion have been suitably vague and make no rational sense, though as Whitefire points out, it is all but impossible to tell when you’re being serious, and you do have a habit of moving the goal posts of your claims in a post ad hoc fashion.

248

And since he will not treat me with respect but tries to turn it into a “Who’s on first” comedy act, Rat-spit can go fuck himself until he begins to start respecting others.

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249

I musty have missed something. I was talking about Bernadette Soubirous. Sounds like you’re talking about the insufferable Teresa of Calcutta.

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I have suffered from chronic pain all my adult life, lots of things help alleviate it, but none have eradicated it. I found an exceptionally good Osteopath who has treated me for years, and though it’s not a miracle cure, rather a treatment to alleviate the worst symptoms, he has kept me in work for over 30 years. Stretching helps, but has limited success, and I was pretty supple when it started anyway, so the stretching needs to be specifically targeting the problem. This is why GP’s tend to dismiss such symptoms. Prescription pain killers and anti-inflammatories worked like magic, but slowly lost their efficacy and then eventually were causing more problems than my back. So I use them very sparingly now.

You have my sympathies, back pain can be very debilitating, it can also a lifelong affliction you can either learn to cope with or not.

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On what objective evidence are you ruling out the placebo effect? And of course relaxing meditation can help reduce such pain by relaxing muscles that are in tension for some reason. Over years that tension can produce a buildup of tough scar tissue, and that is where a goof Osteopath will earn their fee, and stretch and break down those areas. All natural processes with explained with objective evidence of course.

For me acupuncture did nothing, but hey ho, maybe he was crap at it, and when you’re in pain you’ll try almost anything.

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252

I do not consent to your trolling. I request the moderators enforce the no trolling rule.

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253

Yikes. Sorry, David. If it’s to be treated with respect you want, then it’s to be treated with respect you’ll get.

I didn’t realize I was pissing you off. My apologies.

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I’m probably wasting my time with this reply. However, repeated use of the technique (ie. the intentional mental calming of the heart’s “apex”) - has led to the repeated relaxation of the sacroiliac ligaments, tendons, muscles - including the inflammation.

So when my back flares up I calm down the lower part of my heart. This calms my overall pulse and blood pressure. And - I don’t know the exact mechanism - but my back feels better as a result.

So, “repeatability”. Although, you’ve already dismissed “repeatability” as a method of verification. Which confuses me, because isn’t that exactly what a peer reviewed study does? They repeat the experiment to verify the results?

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A joke is a joke ONLY when EVERYONE laughs.

I do not retract my request to have you banned. It is on the hands of the moderators.

256

Holy fuck … what an insight!!!

If you can relax your back, the stress causing it pain will diminish.

BRILLIANT FUCKING INSIGHT! WHY HAVEN’T THE SCIENTISTS COME UP WITH THIS ONE YET?

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257

That wasn’t the case for me. I could stretch my legs and back out; ice it; mentally relax that specific area; or take NSAIDS all day long and the inflammation did not go away.

Relaxing the apex of my heart was not an obvious solution. It was only when the dry heaving began and my heart started to race uncontrollably that I turned my focus to the apex.

I’m surprised you haven’t called this out as pure woo? Why in the hell would relaxing the heart decrease inflammation in the lower back.

I’m saying it does; but it isn’t an obvious solution; and I’ve never heard it recommended by anyone.

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Probably because it isn’t

When I wore a younger man’s clothes, I suffered from crippling tension headaches. Had to go lie down in a darkened room.

Came across a book on self hypnosis in a second hand bookstore. Taught myself the technique. Reached a point where I could slow my heart rate. Pragmatically, if I caught it in time, I was able to relax enough to prevent a headache. I call that a very useful tool to have.

Hypnotic relaxation seems to be a step beyond what one might experience with Hatha Yoga.

Strangely, the headaches ceased soon after the wife fucked off,and have never returned.

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Consider, stress is not the problem… Consider… you don’t know how to relax. (Like everything else, you are doing it wrong.)

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Do you have an EvilOne breathing down your neck 24 hours a day, Cog? I’d be interested to see how well you’d cope if your whole view of reality was entirely flipped over and instead of having a personal, inner voice - you had a maniacal, murderous Demon with supernatural powers.

Just consider the change it would have on you, your livelihood - for example.