Not remotely what you claimed, and it makes no sense in the context of the discourse, and is equally dubious an assertion of course, and of course still does not change the fact my original response was not a straw man and did not shift the goal posts. if you want to see goal posts shifting you are doing it in almost every post now.
So for clarity as your spinning this one each time, I have never denied or rejected the existence of love or compassion as you claimed, only refuted your claim that it is an objective basis for morality, since it is clearly a subjective choice to base morality on this.
Thatâs still not a universal value? Youâre simply offering a vague hypothetical, based on your subjective view of what best serves morality.
I never said it was universal, so thatâs another lame straw man, the fact remains it is a basis for subjective morality, and what I or you feel is, or is not moral, is still not the point, why you keep failing to grasp this isnât clear. The point is that what we assert is moral is a subjective opinion.
Whatever we subjectively decide of course, as has been explained, using the negative of the word doesnât change this obviously?
So you have nothing beyond the bare claim then, thought so. My age remains irrelevant, and again anyone can see it stated in any number of posts on here. So again I can only hope this pretence that repeating the age I have given freely many times is somehow supernatural prescience, is just a lame attempt at humour? Youâd do well to drop the pretence that you have done anything beyond mere repetition of a fact I have shared publicly here many times.
Still not what omniscience means, and one would necessarily need to be omniscient in order to epistemologically justify claiming to know an immutable truth.
I know this already, it was you who claimed to reject the notion of relativistic ethics not me, again you are making contradictory statements.
Iâd agree, but my opinion is as subjective as yours, and Hitlerâs.
The assertion one set of morals is superior to another is subjective, it cannot be otherwise.
So your assertion has gone from being wrong to being irrelevant, since this would still be a subjective choice for the basis of oneâs morality.
A dictionary obviously, and this is irrelevant to your original claim quoted here again for clarity:
That assertion is demonstrably incorrect, regardless how you âfeelâ about the word.
The heart is a pump made of muscle, and what it experiences of emotions is limited to the influence of our brains.
You may consider the moon to be made of cheese if it lights your bulb, but the facts do not support your claim at all.
No it is not. It is accurate to say they are experience by the brain, and that the brain influences to heart.
Hallucinations are generally indistinguishable from reality, but the perception is not real, so if you know this why would you form beliefs based on any hallucination?
Exactly.
Thank you, I was tiring of repeating myself.
It is not an example of an objective basis for morality, and as I have gone to great pains to demonstrate, love is not one emotion as you have implied, but a complex range of emotions, even the target of our love is equally complex, and influences our subjective moral decisions. Thus your continuing assertion that love can be an objective basis for morality is wrong, as we how we experience it is relative, and how and when we apply it is also relative.
Nope, the pain receptors are in your crotch, and transmit the stimuli to your brain, itâs your brain that interprets them as pain.
An argument from personal incredulity fallacy, the facts however are again at odds with what you are asserting. Our brains experience the pain, all the receptors do is transit the stimuli to our brains, if your brain were unable to experience pain no amount of castration or âpainâ stimuli would be experienced at all.
Actually phantom feeling is a widespread phenomenon experienced by amputees. So, once again, without any reference to reality, you are talking bollocks.
Sometimes the nerves in your meat sack generate impulses that your brain decides is pain or pleasure, it can also be fooled, or, indeed make one âfeelâ things that are not even thereâŚlike âuniversal loveâ for one instance, or a missing limb in another.
LOL â Enter phantom pains, which are every bit as real as any real pains. Enter numbness of the arms, legs, fingers or toes. I have a numb Right little toe. A Karate injury. I am sure the thing could be chopped off without me even noticing. Pain comes from the brain, even when you think you feel it in your toes. (Ratty, you just donât know what you are talking about.)
Science attempts to uncover the natural world we live in with provable and testible means.
Religion believes it knows the truth and it all resides around some invisible cosmic mage.
One world view encourages folks to think rationally and to test a claim and assign probabilities.
The other(later) requires the suspension of the laws of physics and nature to be even remotely plausible⌠which one seems a more reasonable view? And which one seems more likely to be total and utter bollocks?
Nope. Youâre confusing my sympathy for your argument with an attempt to muddy the waters. I am and have been trying to clarify your personal âsubjectiveâ interpretation of morals.
Quite clearly you misunderstood me and my meaning hasnât shifted since I originally used the term âuniversalâ. Youâre pandering a very narrow interpretation of the word - one which quite literally means âacross the universeâ - not âuniversal health care for allâ.
If you could stop whining for one minute we can address the nature of âimmeasurableâ kindness and compassion. Once more ⌠do you believe such emotions exist?
Yes. And your subjective view of what best serves morality is as equally hypothetical. How could it not be. That is, unless âimmeasurableâ love and kindness can be defined.
Every moral system is a means to an end. And as a biological species our primitive ends are all the same - sex, food, warmth, social standing.
Nothing more or less. We have simply become so complicated that the means of achieving those ends have diverged drastically away from the primitive social values we all shared at one time.
And is there any reason to punish or reward someone? Or is that also arbitrary?
Thatâs encouraging. I have not once seen your age disclosed on this forum since I discovered it. I did however run a temporal trace on your consciousness back 58 revolutions to the year 1965 when it first emerged in you mothers womb. Donât believe me. I did not make this up. Donât believe me. What would convince you?
It is also not the first time I have used this technique to trace the birth date of someone.
How do you know that?
No. You cut the quote off purposefully. My point in that statement is that even in relative value systems, one value can be objectively said to be higher or lower than another. This need not be demonstrated with morality. It applies to any kind of value system. Numbers, for example.
Mmm. The vicious wolf eats first, I suppose.
The assertion that 2 is greater than 1 is subjective, it cannot be otherwise
Tooooo - sheyyyy!
A doctor calls them schizophrenic hallucinations. Yes, if Iâm wiping my ass with a dictionary it stands to reason that a âhallucinationâ is inherently not real.
If youâre a person with the condition, it may not also be the case.
What is the brains objective when making it feel like itâs in the crotch?
I could have chosen a million other words. The distinction stands.
Iâm becoming very âcomfortableâ with my pain. Having broken my big toe years ago, I am forced to walk miles on it everyday at work. It has become less of a nuisance to me, as much as it has become an observation. In any event, the feeling NEVER appears to be anywhere than in my big toe. I do not apprehend the sensation in my brain. This delusional relativistic pseudo-scientific postmodern theory of it all being in the brain is ⌠missing the point.
Phantom limb is a consequence of the mind-made body.
Damn your dumb, Take some meds that block the receptors to the brain and the pain goes away. The toe does not magically become uninjured. Do you have any frigging idea how your body works.
Pain Really Is All In Your Head And Emotion Controls Intensity
How do you get through your days spouting the ignorance you do?
Pain Really Is All In Your Head And Emotion Controls Intensity
Why, my own moral choices are not salient to this discourse, as I have explained, only that all morals are subjective.
You used the word incorrectly, choose a word that reflects what you mean, since universal does not, and I shall address your claim, I canât be expected to address other than what you write. I am pandering to nothing, including your arrant definition of the word.
Universal adjective
relating to or done by all people or things in the world or in a particular group; applicable to all cases.
FYI this was clearly what you originally meant when you claimed love and compassion were universally used as a basis for morality, theyâre not, as has been demonstrated time and again, but even if they were it would remain a subjective choice.
The secondary definition: noun
a thing having universal effect, currency, or application.
Again your claim would be a) wrong, and b) a subjective choice.
That such emotions are immeasurable sounds like another way of saying they are open to the influence of subjective opinion, and that subjective morality would also influence how we think we achieve them and when they need be applied.
Then why offer it as an example of a universal standard for objective morality?
Indeed, but we have evolved a brain that enables a level of autonomy, so we need not adhere to such primitive notions, either way our moral choices would be subjective.
Well those would be strong influences on our morality, but I donât believe it is accurate to assert there is nothing more, we can choose to diverge from such primitive urges, though again we would be making a subjective moral choice either way.
I never said arbitrary, nor implied it. Well punishment for those who transgress the laws of a society is a necessary means to societal cohesion, were there no consequences societies would break down pretty quickly I imagine. The fact remains the morals are subjective, albeit they achieve a broad consensus among any given society.
I am not going to address further your woo woo claims about you possessing supernatural powers, if you wish start a thread for such nonsense, rest assured the bare claims will get the same response all bare claims get from me, disbelief.
Itâs easily reasoned to anyone who grasps the meaning of immutable and omniscient.
No, thatâs a subjective claim, and either there are objective morals and ethics or they are relative, both claims cannot be simultaneously true, you are simply repeating the contradiction. You have also failed to offer a single example of an objective moral.
Sorry but I canât respond meaningfully to cryptic metaphors, try stating plainly what you mean and what relevance it has to that quote?
Youâve lost me sorry, why would you imagine a brain in and of itself has an objective? We evolved that way, evolution has no plan and no objectives, it is driven by the natural mechanisms, natural selection and survival of the fittest. The first is the influence and pressure of environment, and the second is how well species and attributes match that environment. Our brains experience pain, the pain receptors wherever they have evolved to be, merely transmit those stimuli to the brain.
It remains a fallacious claim, if you value reason and logic then ignoring this is nonsensical. If you care that what you believe is true, then one should value both reason and logic. Though of course you are free to delude yourself, that the fallacy is not relevant to the validity of your assertion, but nonetheless it is.
NO! Why donât you learn something? MRI studies and pain demonstrate sympathetic pain when people are shown pictures of painful situations. A picture of a person stepping on a nail will result in brain activity akin to stepping on a nail. Same parts of the Brian light up as if the person in the MRI actually stepped on a nail. No actual âobject of painâ needed. The imagination âBrain Stateâ is enough. âNo medium required.â
You have already seen Buddhists who can block the pain of setting themselves on fire. (BRAIN STATE). Scientists find brain center that âprofoundlyâ shuts down pain.
âA research team has found a small area of the brain in mice that can profoundly control the animalsâ sense of pain. Somewhat unexpectedly, this brain center turns pain off, not on. Itâs located in an area where few people would have thought to look for an anti-pain center, the amygdala, which is often considered the home of negative emotions and responses, like the fight or flight response and general anxiety.â
I apologize it was stairs not a flat surface that this happened on, the last mile of an 8+ mile run. Thereâs no chance i would slide perfectly over the stairs especially fatigued. Please be honest. All you have to do is see with your own eyes what happens in instances like that:
What is more likely, that the laws of physics were suspended in your favor⌠or something perfectly plausible happened to you that you didnât quite understand.
Quite, and even if he had a shred of objective evidence that his unevidenced anecdote could not be explained by natural or scientific law (the definition of a miracle) drawing any conclusion from not having a natural explanation, is the very definition of an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. It would be a god of the gaps polemic, nothing more. However he canât even demonstrate that, as all he has presented is an unevidenced anecdote, he might as well claim he flew unaided to the moon.
Yes, you do we all do whether we like it or not we all use faith. 100% you canât give objective proof for the origin of life. Yet every atheist will tell me that only theists have to use faith when there is nothing in a lab that tell us life comes from random chance and is unguided and without an intelligent mind, which is what is the basis of what atheists think. I am not even trying to upset you but i canât ignore the truth.
As for the book of Enoch i do not consider it inspired. I donât see how it can be with contradictions to Genesis which i consider to be inspired.
No this is till a lie, religious faith is defined as âstrong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proofâ so no atheists do not use religious faith, it was dishonest to equate religious faith with atheists in the first place, but since this has been explained to you already you are lying now, and itâs hard to imagine itâs not merely provocative, since you must know it is lie now, assuming you didnât from the start, and thatâs a pretty dubious proposiiton.
Straw man fallacy, again it is inherently dishonest to repeat this since atheism is simply the lack or absence of belief in any deity or deities, it makes no claims about anything in and of itself. So another lie youâre repeating, doesnât the Christian religion purport to prohibit lying?
Indeed, good to know the level of literacy is that high among atheists. Again religious faith is not required by atheism by definition since atheism has no doctrine.
Straw man fallacy, since atheism makes no claims nor involves any beliefs about the origins of life. Life exists as an objective fact, and we know natural phenomena exist and as an objective fact, if you want to add inexplicable magic from a deity you canât demonstrate any objective evidence for then I am going to disbelieve you.
Another lie, I am an atheist and I hold no such belief, I accept the irrefutable scientific fact that human life evolved, as has all life. Beyond that I make no assumptions, I simply donât believe in any deity or deities as no one demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity or that they are even possible. The biblical creation myth, as well as being wholly unsupported by any objective evidence, is roundly contradicted by irrefutable scientific facts.
I donât believe either claim.
You can consider the moon to be made of cheese if it makes you happy, but the Genesis creation myth is at odds with irrefutable scientific facts.