Why do you think

So that’s a no then, you can’t demonstrate any objective evidence that anything exists beyond natural phenomena, thought so. At least you now know what the word include means, so the day hasn’t been a total waste for you.

How about demonstrating something approaching objective evidence for your deity?

I think we know the answer to that one as well, quick try and find another gap to hide it in, I’m sure you’ll fool us eventually. :wink:

So we have danced around with a whole load of irrational religious apologetics and quite a bit of religious sophistry, and guess what the existence of life, the material universe, and natural phenomena are still objective facts. Still not one shred of objective evidence or any rational argument for any deity, or anything supernatural though.

God of the gaps again, nothing to see here folks, move on, nothing at all.

No, if we invoke Occam (one of your favs) then I would say the burden of proof clearly lays at the feet of the atheist in providing proof that there is no First Cause .

Then you clearly don’t understand Occam’s Razor, since I have made no such claim, nor have I made any unevidenced assumptions about the origins of the universe. We know natural phenomena exist, and it’s you as a theist who is adding an unevidenced deity, using inexplicable magic, which demonstrably violates Occam’s razor. This another fallacious attempt to reverse the burden of proof, all you have from the start are argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacies, insisting people disprove your unevidenced deity.

So what objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity? The burden of proof is entirely yours, since you are the one making the claim, not me. Atheism is not a claim, it is the lack or absence of belief, try again.

This is now in the official running for the Atheist Award for the Most Idiotic Statement 2023.

  1. The statement must bear no relation to reality
  2. Include an allusion to a deity
  3. Attempt to reverse the burden of proof

There are so many finalists this year…but we will have to wait until November for the results. Can you contain yourselves? (Not you Cog, we all know and understand your continence problem)


It’s a contender for sure, but check out this:

I mean claiming a dog can’t disbelieve in a deity zooms it to the top on its own, but simultaneously claiming it also can’t believe in a deity seems like a clincher. Not to decry the idiocy of yet another argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy from @Sid, combining as it does a risible misunderstanding of Occam’s razor, I think @X0B35 may have beaten him to the punch here. Also he gets an extra point as a theist for being unable to spell deity properly, that’s the kind of rigour the award is meant to honour.

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And what have scientists discovered thus far?
(Throat clearing sounds) Ahehham. Scientists have succeeded in observing one of the strangest predictions of quantum theory – the breakdown of causality.

In the macro world, causality is a fundamental property: if one thing happens, it causes another to follow it. For instance, if a tap is turned on, water flows out; or if a drum is struck, a sound is heard. If this, as the saying goes, then that.

On a quantum level, however, cause-and-effect breaks down.

“The weirdness of quantum mechanics means that events can happen without a set order,” says physicist Jacqui Romero, from the University of Queensland in Australia.

The real question is 'What do you mean by a ‘First Cause.’ And, are you aware that at the quantum level, cause and effect break down?

Even so. Let’s pretend there was a fist cause and you can demonstrate it. How did you rule out a natural first cause?


Re: First Cause

Okay, look, I freely admit I’m no expert on any of this. Hell, for that matter, I barely have a rudimentary understanding of it. A physicist I am NOT. That being said, it seems only natural to me that there had to be something that happened first to cause everything to happen. Thus, “First Cause.”… Duh… :roll_eyes:… However… For that “First Cause” to happen, it stands to reason there had to be something available or some event to take place to instigate that “First Cause”, right? I mean, after all, how could something happen with nothing around to make it happen? In which case, whatever caused our First Cause would be the Actual First Cause, thereby technically making our First Cause the Second First Cause.

Granted, the Actual First Cause merely instigated our Second First Cause and did not actually cause us. Therefore, I suppose our Second First Cause could still be considered our Actual First Cause since it was the cause that actually brought us into existence. Although, all things considered, it is entirely possible our First Cause might actually be anywhere between the First First Cause and Infinity First Cause, depending on what point we popped into existence on the Grand Cause Timeline. I understand that thinking about this can at first cause some headaches. No cause for alarm, though. For we can take comfort in knowing that regardless of how many First Causes caused our First Cause, it is OUR First Cause that actually brought us here to question what caused us.

(Edit just to be a cause.)


Thanks TM for introducing an only slightly clanking note of clarity to this debate. As human history shows, nearly every group of Modern Hominids has its own particular “First Cause”, which would suggest your solution is the correct one. That those “First Causes” are often in opposition or have been stolen and made into a slightly different “First Cause”, or elevated from a minor 3rd or even 4th cause to a particular groups 'First Cause" also bears witness to your clarity of vision and rational thought.

History bears truth! All Hail the 4,235,672nd First Cause!


Why aspire if we all just go to the grave and life has no meaning? Who cares if this life is all we have and the sun is just going to go bye bye.

Well I can’t speak for other atheists of course, but I care that what I believe is true, and I care to try and believe only what is true, and of course I should rather my life has some meaning to me, as that is preferable to my life being devoid of any meaning to me, I just am not prepared to cling to unevidenced myths in order to find that meaning, as it would be meaningless to cling to a delusion.

@Calilasseia just explained he cares, as have I, now I know form past experience theists find the idea that atheists can find meaning in reality, without recourse to religious superstition alarming, and perhaps an obvious inference can be drawn from that, but nonetheless you have your answer.

Did you quote this for a reason, only I see no response?

Not everyone does? Some whine and complain. Some enjoy. Some are amazed.

Here are some of the ways people find meaning in life. There are more but I don’t remember them and didn’t find them right away on a goole search.

  1. To understand and be understood. Why not aspire to understand meaning in the world around us? No reason at all for God or gods. .

  2. Aspiring to love and be loved. Again, a journey of complete fulfillment for many.

  3. Aspiring to serve and be served. A complete and meaningful way to lead one’s life in the service of an organization for the benefit of all.

  4. To enjoy and be enjoyed. Hedonistic perhaps, but one can not deny it is another way of enjoying this life and an aspiration of many.

Why aspire? Because that is what we do. We do it for understanding, for love, for service, for enjoyment, and more.


Some do all three, but it takes practise. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

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Isn’t that one of the christian commandments? Thou shalt whine and complain, especially about things that are none of your business. They act like it is.

Because this is the only life we’re given you moron. The “meaning” of this one and only life is to aspire to do the best you can with the time that you’re given, spend some meaningful time with your family and/or friends, and appreciate whatever you’ve been given in the years you have on this earth.
Do you really believe that bullshit that we’re all born “sinners”? Does this mean that our granddaughter Piper, who was stillborn, is burning in hell because she wasn’t baptized? She never got a chance to live, never took a single breath before she died in the womb.
Do you actually think this, because if you do, I feel sorry for you. That is really a fucked up thing to attribute to your loving god. This is why religion poisons everything.

Try because what we do in our lives provides us with measurable benefits while we are alive. Benefits that we wish to enjoy.

Did you take yourself seriously when you posted this tripe?


Oh damn. I did it again. I responded seriously to a frigging troll of a post. Damn ! I gotta quit doing that.

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Utter tripe .
There are no benefits in atheistic materialism . There is no meaning , no purpose , nothing but blind pitiless indifference . Live by the philosophy you espouse and stop with the lies .

Please help me understand how you know this.


Blind pitiless indifference… :thinking:… Hmmmm… I kinda like that. It actually has a nice ring to it. I have to admit, you may have a point there, Sid. Too damn bad, though, that I’m so blindly cold-hearted that I don’t give a shit one way or the other. I mean, why should I care, since my life is so useless and without meaning? Now, if you’ll excuse me, please, I have to go throw big rocks at a litter of newborn kittens near my house.

(Edit to ask directions to nearest tall building.)

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