Why do Christians defend their deity?

[Sheldon]

@Agnostotheist

a big part of Christianity is working to have a relationship with Jesus. To do that, I needed to learn to hear him in lieu of me (often called the still small voice).

Yet other theists who listen to this inner voice believe in different deities, so you must see how the claim looks to a group of atheists? I mean it is possible for all theists to be wrong, but it can’t be possible that they are all right, singling out one deity as real in this way, seems obviously biased to me, and that inner voice is demonstrably unreliable in validating claims and beliefs.

@Agnostotheist

Then there is the Christian concept of Peace and Joy. In a nut shell, it is faith that God will still do something good with what might come from those times we get it wrong.

A cursory and objective glance at the the history of Christianity contradicts this assertion, and of course even were that not the case, your claim tells us nothing about the validity of the belief a deity exists.

@Agnostotheist

I don’t reject the Old Testament. I think the hard parts are judged so because modern society has deep seated values ingrained within it that come from Christianity.

That’s a blatant contradiction, the old testament deity explicitly endorses slavery, ethnic cleansing, and sex trafficking virginal female prisoners, without the barbaric and sadistic murder, infanticide and genocide that deity is depicted as committing itself. Moral rectitude is not derived from christianity, it precedes it, and is often in spite of many of its biblical teachings.

@Agnostotheist

In the time of Moses and before Moses it was common (and likely revered) for a tribe to sack another tribe for the spoils.

that doesn’t explain why the biblical deity endorses and encourages such barbaric behaviours, you can’t claim morality is derived from christianity then cherry pick what you perceive as moral from the bible, that’s an obvious contradiction.

@Agnostotheist

I understand that to be God’s laws rather than all that stuff in Deuteronomy and Leviticus(??).

On what objective evidence are you deciding those other laws were derived from a deity in error? You might have been burned at the stake until very recently, and for much of the history of christianity for making just such a claim.

@Agnostotheist

Primarily (if not exclusively) the ten commandments.

The first four are a megalomaniacal deity making demands on how its pets should worship it, the rest manage to avoid commenting on child abuse at all, or spousal rape, or women having equal rights, or abortion, or the egregious suffering caused by slavery, which of course that bible specifically endorses elsewhere in the name of that deity of course,

That aside exactly what objective evidence are you basing your cherry picking of those ten commandments out of all the other biblical laws? Beyond the fact that almost all else in the old testament, is the barbaric sadistic and misogynistic ravings of ignorant bronze age Bedouins, that has long since been left behind by the evolving morality of one species of evolved ape.

I am an atheist, and I ask again, what moral rectitude are you or any theists capable of that I am not?

You keep claiming human morality is derived from christianity, so please offer some shred of evidence to support that claim?

@Agnostotheist

I understand that is the clarification that God provided.

No you don’t, you’re simply happy to assume this, please do stop making assertions as if they are based on anything approaching objective evidence.

[David_Killens]

@Agnostotheist

But there is the passage where Peter(??) is napping on the roof and has a vision of all the stuff he can now eat and do. I can look that up if you like, to get correct, but I bet you know what I am talking about.

I understand that is the clarification that God provided.

Acts 10:9-16 9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

So to get clarification on something jesus said in Matthew one must listen to Mark in Acts?

Does that make any kind of sense? Please, stop and ponder this.

One may as well just go to a website that quotes different daily random biblical passages as the path in that day’s decisions. Or use this …

[Agnostotheist]

@Nyarlathotep

You’re using love as a proper pronoun; to represent a supernatural creature/deity?

I intend its use like the apostle John used it.
Similar to if I would say: God is trustworthy; or maybe a better example would be: God is my world.

[Nyarlathotep]

@Agnostotheist

I intend its use like the apostle John used it.

Is that a yes or a no, or something else entirely?

[David_Killens]

@Agnostotheist

God is trustworthy

The same god that punked Abraham into almost sacrificing his son Isaac? Sincerely, is this trustworthy?

[Agnostotheist]

@Sheldon

obviously biased to me, and that inner voice is demonstrably unreliable in validating claims and beliefs.

I completely understand that. I don’t know why it seems God gives that insight to some and not all, and/or at different times.

@Sheldon

the old testament deity explicitly endorses slavery, ethnic cleansing, and sex trafficking virginal female prisoners, without the barbaric and sadistic murder, infanticide and genocide

It Old Testament authors surly did. But God has the power mercy and love to accept those who suffered unjustly—even at his command—into Heaven. So the they may have suffered for a brief time on earth but obtained a place in Heaven.

@Sheldon

The first four are a megalomaniacal deity making demands on how its pets should worship

Or, God is tripling/quadrupling down (depending on which set of the ten commandments one follows—i go with the three) on the point that God will provide more than the material/physical idols—pagan god idols or idolatry of wealth, sex etc…

I don’t offer that as proof, just my belief, that you have made abundantly clear you will not accept without proof. And I’m good with that.

@Sheldon

manage to avoid commenting on child abuse

That is a very good point. I need to go read the two accounts of the ten commandments, as they are not pressed in the Bible as a list like we are used to seeing on grandma’s wall.

@Sheldon

That aside exactly what objective evidence are you basing your cherry picking of those ten commandments out of all the other biblical laws

I’m not providing evidence. I fine with your disbelief. I how you don’t take that personally.

@Sheldon

I ask again, what moral rectitude are you or any theists capable of that I am not?

You’ve asked this of me before? Answer NONE! Plus I believe you have as much chance at Heaven as the Pope.

@Sheldon

You keep claiming human morality is derived from christianity

I don’t claim that.

[Agnostotheist]

@Nyarlathotep

Is that a yes or a no, or something else entirely?

I don’t understand your question.

[Sheldon]

@Nyarlathotep

You’re using love as a proper pronoun; to represent a supernatural creature/deity?

@Nyarlathotep

@Agnostotheist

I intend its use like the apostle John used it.

Is that a (1) yes or a (2) no, or (3) something else entirely?

Oh oh oh, I know this one, it’s 3 isn’t it. I’m right aren’t I? Am I? I think i am.

[Agnostotheist]

@David_Killens

punked Abraham into almost sacrificing his son Isaac

I was offering that as an example of how I used the word Love. But yes, as God didn’t let him do it.

[MrDawn]

@Agnostotheist

I completely understand that. I don’t know why it seems God gives that insight to some and not all, and/or at different times.

Every time you say “God” the way you’re putting it out there like it’s a fact is a claim.

@Agnostotheist

It Old Testament authors surly did. But God has the power mercy and love to accept those who suffered unjustly—even at his command—into Heaven. So the they may have suffered for a brief time on earth but obtained a place in Heaven.

Again, you mention “God” and his magical powers. Again that is a claim.

@Agnostotheist

Or, God is tripling/quadrupling down (depending on which set of the ten commandments one follows—i go with the three) on the point that God will provide more than the material/physical idols—pagan god idols or idolatry of wealth, sex etc…

Claim. Provide evidence please.

@Agnostotheist

I don’t offer that as proof, just my belief, that you have made abundantly clear you will not accept without proof. And I’m good with that.

Not only are you offering your belief, you’re preaching it. Yeah um no. Stop doing that. You’re throwing around the word “God” and talking as if it were factual and real without giving us “evidence”. The other members have pointed this out several times but you seem to ignore it.

Instead of preaching. Give evidence. We’re not Christians. We don’t believe in that and you’re not getting the hint.

@Agnostotheist

I’m not providing evidence. I fine with your disbelief. I how you don’t take that personally.

Exactly. You’re preaching the word of your deity. You’re proselytizing.

[Nyarlathotep]

@Agnostotheist

@Nyarlathotep

Is that a yes or a no, or something else entirely?

I don’t understand your question.

I asked a question that presumably had a yes or no answer. You gave an strange answer and I can’t discern if it is a yes or a no (or something else).

Should I interpret your statement that you don’t understand my one sentence extremely simple question as a red flag? To me it screams you aren’t serious, that you are here to gaslight people. Any thoughts?

[Agnostotheist]

@MrDawn

Claim. Provide evidence please.

I tried to be clear when I stated my beliefs, that my basis is primarily a personal experience that I can’t convey in a way that will satisfy the group.

About the way I put “God” out there. How would you expect a Christian to do it?

@MrDawn

Not only are you offering your belief, you’re preaching it. Yeah um no. Stop doing that.

This was not my idea. I really didn’t want to go the way this has gone, partly because I don’t feel qualified to be a good resource for all thing Christian (i.e. it’s scary to be so out numbers) and because I will come off preachy. It is hard to respond to all the groups question without doing that. I provide my belief because I was asked repeatedly to do so.

For what it’s worth, I feel like some posts are intended to trying to convert me from Christianity. But I am giving the authors the benefit of the doubt.

Like I have said before, my intention is to expand my world view to include atheistic points of view from atheist not apologists.

I would like to be done with the dissection of my beliefs as it is not my objective in AR. But I said I would try and respond as courtesy to this group.

All Christians are call to evangelize, but not told how to do that—at least not in my Church. I prefer to offer myself as an example of Jesus’ teachings in lieu of preaching. But Christian are also expected to know enough to defend their faith when challenged. I offer this as an FYI.

[Agnostotheist]

@Nyarlathotep

You’re using love as a proper pronoun; to represent a supernatural creature/deity?

Is this the question that has you upset with me? Did you mean to say:

“Are you using love as a proper pronoun; to represent a supernatural creature/deity?”

If so: No.

[Sheldon]

@Agnostotheist

@Sheldon

obviously biased to me, and that inner voice is demonstrably unreliable in validating claims and beliefs.

I completely understand that. I don’t know why it seems God gives that insight to some and not all, and/or at different times.

Well if you understood what I’d said, then you’d see that I was suggesting one obvious reason is subjective bias, which would mean the insight isn’t derived from any deity at all.

@Agnostotheist

@Sheldon

the old testament deity explicitly endorses slavery, ethnic cleansing, and sex trafficking virginal female prisoners, without the barbaric and sadistic murder, infanticide and genocide

It Old Testament authors surly did. But God

No, I specifically pointed out that the deity depicted in the bible behaved in those ways, and endorsed and encouraged such behaviours from the ignorant tribal Bedouins it was manipulating. The deity depicted is entirely at odds with the one your claiming exists.

@Agnostotheist

So the they may have suffered for a brief time on earth but obtained a place in Heaven.

Well that’s just another completely unevidenced claim, but no that’s not true either according to your religion, the Amalekites were slaughtered at that deity’s command, even the children babies and infants, hell even the animals ffs. There is no mention of them going swiftly to heaven.

@Agnostotheist

Or, God is tripling/quadrupling down (depending on which set of the ten commandments one follows—i go with the three)

Oh dear, I fear my point about subjective bias being the primary selector at play here, rather then the cherry picked parts of the religion being derived from an omniscient omnipotent and perfectly loving and merciful deity, is being lost on you.

@Agnostotheist

I don’t offer that as proof, just my belief,

1. Proofs are for mathematics, not reasoning.
2. Just bare unevidenced beliefs (claims) are all you have offered throughout this discourse.
3. You have (in a very very very long line of theists, have brought the same identical spiel to an atheist debate forum, what do you imagine I should infer? Bear in mind you have made many assumptions about atheism that are contradicted by the primary dictionary definition.
4. If you think I’m being mean, try asking yourself why you think god claims should be treated any differently to any other claims, like the Loch Ness monster as just one example, or people who think mermaids are real, as another.

@Agnostotheist

That is a very good point. I need to go read the two accounts of the ten commandments, as they are not pressed in the Bible as a list like we are used to seeing on grandma’s wall.

Google them, though given you just claimed they make uo the core of your belief in the entire old testament law, I’m stunned you don’t have them committed to memory. Meanwhile address the point, as you know it was correct, and try and imagine what a deity with limitless knowledge power and mercy could and would do to protect children from abuse, then compare it to the ten commandments, then ask yourself if they it’s rational to believe they really were derived from such a deity.

I guarantee adhering to the principles of logic is vastly more likely to make conclusions correct than a biased subjective “inner voice” or cherry picking archaic morals from bronze age middle eastern patriarchal Bedouins.

@Agnostotheist

I’m not providing evidence. I fine with your disbelief. I how you don’t take that personally.

I don’t take it personally no, I do think it is risible to make endless unevidenced assertions, and pretend it is ok to say you are not providing evidence, as if that makes it ok in a debate forum.

@Agnostotheist

@Sheldon

I ask again, what moral rectitude are you or any theists capable of that I am not?

You’ve asked this of me before? Answer NONE!

Then why do you keep claiming moral rectitude is derived from christianity, those are two contradictory claims.

@Agnostotheist

I believe you have as much chance at Heaven as the Pope.

I believe I am Superman, does that make it true? Does it make the claim less risible because I believe it? It’s a belief, so should it be respected?

@Agnostotheist

@Sheldon

You keep claiming human morality is derived from christianity

I don’t claim that.

Er yes you did, here for one.

@Agnostotheist

modern society has deep seated values ingrained within it that come from Christianity.

Unless you meant those Christian values were Amoral or even immoral of course, that’s not what you meant was it?

@Agnostotheist

@David_Killens

punked Abraham into almost sacrificing his son Isaac

I was offering that as an example of how I used the word Love. But yes, as God didn’t let him do it.

So it’s morally acceptable to pretend you’re going to kill a child, as long as you don’t go ahead, tie him up, build a fire to burn his body as a superstitious sacrifice, draw the knife etc etc etc?

Wow!

@MrDawn

@Agnostotheist

I completely understand that. I don’t know why it seems God gives that insight to some and not all, and/or at different times.

Every time you say “God” the way you’re putting it out there like it’s a fact is a claim.

I agree, but apparently he’s not here to offer evidence, whatever that means. I’d have a little more respect at being preached at in this way if the person admitted there is no evidence to present, but then I always was a bit of an idealist.

@Agnostotheist

I tried to be clear when I stated my beliefs, that my basis is primarily a personal experience that I can’t convey in a way that will satisfy you.

This is a misrepresentation, as you have offered nothing whatsoever by way of evidence, so the “satisfy you” part is nonsense, it wouldn’t and shouldn’t satisfy anyone including you if I made contrary claims that I insisted were evidenced only in my head.

@Agnostotheist

it’s scary to be so out numbers) and because I will come of preachy. It is hard to respond to all you question without doing that. I provide my belief because I was asked repeatedly to do so.

Well to be fair this an atheist debate forum, being outnumbered was inevitable, being asked for something or anything tangible or compelling beyond endless unevidenced assertions is of course also inevitable.

@Agnostotheist

For what it’s worth, I feel like some posts are intended to trying to convert me from Christianity.

That’s an oxymoron, do you mean de-convert perhaps? Also this is an atheist forum, did you really expect the atheists here not to challenge your unevidenced assertions and core beliefs?

@Agnostotheist

But I am giving the authors the benefit of the doubt.

OK two things, stop putting full stops in the middle of sentences then capitalising the word but, secondly no one here requires the benefit of the doubt about their motives for challenging unevidenced theistic assertions. This is an atheist debate forum, that fact is self explanatory.

@Agnostotheist

All Christians are call to evangelize,

And no atheist is obliged to comply, and on here anyone is free to challenge any and all ideas, claims and beliefs and subject them to critical scrutiny.

@Agnostotheist

I prefer to offer myself as an example of Jesus’ teachings in lieu of preaching.

Well you are preaching, that is self evident regardless of your intent, and you might want to consider how someone preaching endless claims without a shred of evidence for them, makes that claim appear to a forum full of atheists.

@Agnostotheist

But Christian are also expected to know enough to defend their faith when challenged.

Not in my experience, they use irrational reasoning, known logical fallacies and unevidenced claims, and not just the ones who come here either.

@Agnostotheist

I offer this as an FYI.

Sorry but information by definition must contain facts, you are not dealing in facts. Do I need to post the definition of the word fact?

[Agnostotheist]

@Sheldon

The deity depicted is entirely at odds with the one your claiming exists.

Sheldon, I seem to be no where near your level of academia, so I very likely am missing your point. But when you say “entirely,” does that mean at all times? For example when God lead the Israelites out of Egypt it was like the Pied Piper?

@Sheldon

Amalekites were slaughtered at that deity’s command, even the children babies and infants, hell even the animals ffs. There is no mention of them going swiftly to heaven

I concur, it is not specially mentioned as part of that passage, but there is discussion in other places where the Bible states the living and the dead will be judged.

@Sheldon

Oh dear, I fear my point about subjective bias being the primary selector at play here,

I am bias. I’m a Christian. I have never claimed not to be biased. Judge me as you like but I fear that the concept that I am not trying to give you unbiased information, is lost on you.

[MrDawn]

@Sheldon

I agree, but apparently he’s not here to offer evidence, whatever that means. I’d have a little more respect at being preached at in this way if the person admitted there is no evidence to present, but then I always was a bit of an idealist.

If he can summon Jesus in my office right now to do miracles, summon God to announce it’s existence and demonstrate it’s power, or summon Lucifer to make me filthy rich. Then I’d be sold on the idea that deities, demons, prophets, and whatever supernatural things he believes in would more than likely exist. But, he says he can’t do that. So I guess he’s shit out of luck.

[MrDawn]

@Agnostotheist

Judge me as you like but I fear that the concept that I am not trying to give you unbiased information, is lost on you.

You’re using ideas, that you obviously believe exists, from a book that a lot of us see as a work of fiction. The Bible is a claim, not evidence. It no more validates the characters in itself then Marvel validates Peter Parker or Tony Stark’s existence.

You get me?

[Whitefire13]

@Agnostotheist

I think the hard parts are judged so because modern society has deep seated values ingrained within it that come from Christianity.

I call bullshit.

Christ didn’t free slaves. Christians didn’t free slaves. God did not command a person to “not own another”.

HUMANS that fought for humane treatment and equality (as in value and accessibility to basic human rights) freed slaves via LAWS

Christ didn’t elevate women to equality with men (as in value and accessibility to basic human rights). Christians didn’t “reform” the pecking order. God didn’t “undo” his standard that women were property of men.

HUMANS fought for equal treatment of women and opportunities for land ownership, inheritance, protections in marriage, rape laws (criminalizing), voting rights, workplace acceptance and equal pay, health choice over her reproducing, birth control…

OUR modern values are ethical - something your god and god followers of man’s written words by ancient tribes have no solid claim to.

[Agnostotheist]

@MrDawn

You get me?

Yep. But do you get me?

I stated clearly I would not be able to offer evidence. I am responding out of courtesy using biased claims. And I’m nearly done with that. Sorry if that is not good enough. I will pray that an apologists join AR for all’yal to grill. (That’s a joke :-P)

[Whitefire13]

@Agnostotheist

I am bias. I’m a Christian. I have never claimed not to be biased. Judge me as you like but I fear that the concept that I am not trying to give you unbiased information, is lost on you

Nothing is lost on Sheldon (or at least very little)…

No one “judges” you here BUT you (through your writing) give us ample evidence of your irrational beliefs THAT we (most) reject in favor of rational evidenced claims.

Believe how you want …we don’t give a shit. BUT it is irrational, imagination gobble-gook…