Why do atheïsts rely so heavily on science

“Why do you believe in science!”

I dunno princess, but have a look at what you’ve managed to do…

You’ve used a phone or computer (science)
Accessed the Internet (science)
Entered this forum (science)
Managed to reply to community albeit electronically (ohhhh look, science)
And left a really fucking stupid comment (theism)

Look what works!!! It’s amazing isn’t it?!

It’s almost like science works, wow what a crazy bat shit world we live in…

If we all continued to live without science and only live via the bible, you’d probably be in some shit hole hut somewhere, succumbing to dysentery.

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Not sure who you are responding to… You can ass this…
No one needs to believe in science. It’s demonstrable. Jump out the window, and you will fall until you hit the ground. “Science!” It works. It works if you are an idiot, and it works if you are not. No belief required. You do understand that science is descriptive and not prescriptive right? Scientists build models to help explain the world around us. They are the best models built upon the best evidence. Did you miss this in High School?

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… which, to be fair, he basically said in the rest of his post. I think he missed the quote tags, that’s all.

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Read the rest cog, read the rest…

lol not to mention they drive cars, use air conditioning, use kitchen appliances, and go to the hospital and rely on life support when they get surgery. They’re full of it.

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Because they’re less inclined to base their beliefs on idiotic and unevidenced superstitions?

Be a dear and provide a citation, only I have enough experience of the theistic penchant for dishonest strawmen to be dubious about bare unevidenced claims they make, especially about science.

One more thing the bible got wrong, doubting claims has enormous value, if we care that what we believe is true.

Then go tell the scientific world, but please do stop using technology to do it, and stop telling atheists, as your idiotic protestations here seem like you simply are triggered that others dare to not share your beliefs in archaic superstition.

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Berlinski is a charlatan. No one with functioning neurons treats the output of a Duplicity Institute “fellow” as anything other than fabrications and lies.

Well first of all, no one who paid attention in class adopts this strawman caricature view of the educated approach to the world.

Case in point - I spent a good part of my academic career studying pure mathematics. Which deals exclusively with abstract entities, about which the physical sciences provide no input. Instead, pure mathematics involves applying well-defined formal rules of inference to well-defined axioms about those abstract entities. One might try to claim that the formulation of a mathematical proof constitutes an “observation” about those entities, but this is stretching the definition of “observation”, possibly beyond reasonable limits, though the relevant philosophers will almost certainly build careers arguing about this idea.

Likewise, those of us who paid attention in class, recognise the value of philosophy, when it is conducted properly. The purpose of philosophy isn’t to answer questions, but to determine which questions are pertinent to ask. That philosophy has an unfortunate habit of being hijacked by assertionists (and indeed lends itself to such hijacking with dangerous ease) doesn’t detract from this, it merely requires us to be vigilant with respect to keeping assertionist cant at bay.

So, I’ve already provided two examples of methods of acquiring knowledge that are, in their own realms, reliable, and recognised as such by those of us who paid attention in class.

However, with respect to concrete entities, the scientific method is not only demonstrably reliable, but has no real competition. Observing how concrete entities behave, and deducing relevant relationships inherent thereto, has been, to use the words of one biographer of Nietzsche, “terrifyingly successful”. Those who wish to assert otherwise have a lot of work ahead of them. Namely:

[1] Demonstrate that you have an alternative methodology, whose components and operation are well-defined in detail;

[2] Demonstrate that your alternative methodology sorts relevant propositions into “true” and “false” categories in a testably reliable manner;

[3] Demonstrate that your alternative methodology is applicable to concrete entities.

Without the above steps, all you have is hot air.

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We rely on science because it delivers the goods.

Modern medicine, anesthesia, forecast of hurricanes and storms, etc. are all products of science.

Do you wish to give these things up?

When you need an appendectomy, get it done with a flint knife and no anesthetic, and then come talk to me about how science is bad.

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Ewwww… I like that. I will give you credit the first three times I use it, and then it’s mine.

So, put in idiot’s terminology, even the best mathematical formulas and philosophical meanderings still need concrete evidence?

Not unless concrete entities and the behavour thereof are the subject.

Yes, I suppsose that makes sense. There are other subjects after all.

So he made it up in 1976, you seem to have destroyed your own argument there. FYI all words are made up, the important part you missed was that the term is BS, a canard of religious apologists who don’t want to accept scientific facts, purely because those facts contradict aspects of their archaic superstitious beliefs.

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Ok, some more in depth commentary is required on the matter of mathematics.

What matters in the realm of pure mathematics, is whether or not any equations are consistent with the axioms and prior theorems that led to the construction of said equations. Whether or not those equations happen to model the behaviour of a real world physical system is irrelevant to pure mathematician - what a pure mathematician is interested in, is investigating the behaviour of equations as pure, abstract entities.

In the case of applied mathematics, this is the discipline within which additional criteria are brought into play. The most important of said criteria being whether or not an equation models the behaviour of a physical system of interest precisely and accurately.

Pure mathematics is, of course, the canonical example of a system of formal reasoning, and its practitioners have produced a wonderful, at times brilliantly elegant, and at others shockingly counter-intuitive, collection of theorems within that discipline. But only a few, shall we say, interesting individuals, have ever claimed that the products of pure mathematics dictate how reality behaves. Most recognise that a subset of the products of pure mathematics happen to be uniquely placed to describe how reality behaves, but there is a far larger subset of the products of pure mathematics that don’t describe how reality behaves.

For those requiring an insight into why I wrote that last sentence, I have in my collection, a nice little textbook on theoretical mechanics. The work in question being Theory and Problems of Theoretical Mechanics by Murray R. Spiegel, Schaum’s Outline Series in Science, McGraw-Hill Book Company, ISBN 07 084367 0. Turning to Chapter 5, Central Forces and Planetary Motion, beginning on page 116, we move to solved problem 5.15 on page 127, which requires the determination of the nature of a central force that generates a particular path of motion in space. The path in question is a somewhat peculiar one, and requires the orbiting particle to pass through the point from which the central force generating the orbit originates.

As an exercise in mastering the requisite mathematical tools, it’s pedagogically useful, and the answer to the problem, is that the central force in question obeys an inverse fifth power law - namely, if r is the distance from the orbiting object to the origin of the central force, then that force is given by F = k/f5, where k is some suitable constant of proportionality.

The point I’m making is that this is an example of the many products of mathematical reasoning that don’t describe any observable system. Useful as a theoretical exercise it may be for the student, I am not aware of any observable system that this theoretical construct describes. Indeed, as a proposed model for gravity, is it demonstrably wrong, because, for example, the planets in the Solar System manifestly do not move in this manner. Indeed, if they ever had done, they would only have done this once, for reasons that should be obvious to anyone who has paid attention in a science class, and we would not be here discussing this topic as a corollary of said orbital behaviour. In short, planets obeying this central force law would crash into the parent star on the first pass, for those who haven’t studied the requisite topics.

Quite simply, what holds true in an abstract world described by a formal axiomatic system, need not hold true in the concrete world. A fortuitously useful construct such as a k/r2 law, that happens to be an excellent description of the behaviour of gravity (and for that matter, electromagnetism), may arise from a formal axiomatic background, but we have no guarantees that said formal axiomatic background will always deliver the goods. Unfortunately, the caveats applicable here never register with the usual suspects.

Physicists (and other scientists, for that matter) have known for some time, that it doesn’t matter how beautiful, elegant or sophisticated your theory is, it can always be brought crashing and burning by a set of data that says “no, you’re wrong”. Indeed, a parallel caveat applies to formal axiomatic systems even when we don’t try applying them to the concrete world - namely, that it doesn’t matter how beautiful, elegant or sophisticated your formal axiomatic system is, it can always be brought to its knees by internal inconsistencies, or, in some cases, the Incompleteness Theorem.

At this point, I shouldn’t really need to tell astute readers that the incompleteness Theorem constitutes, in effect, a “barrier of ignorance” that no axiomatic formal system can ever cross, and, furthermore, the more powerful, sophisticated and expressive your formal system is, the more it will fall victim thereto. But it’s still worth mentioning, because the usual suspects are either unaware of this, in which case their attempt to conjure entities into existence is incompetent, or pretend that their pet system of “reasoning” is exempt therefrom on grounds that are usually revealed to be specious, in which case the practitioners of this brand of legerdemain are duplicitous and not to be trusted.

That paragraph above doesn’t negate the results shown to be consistent within the formal system in question (another mistake the usual suspects make, frequently doing so deliberately in order to facilitate mendacious apologetic fabrications). What the Incompleteness Theorem actually states, is that there exists at least one proposition that is true within the system, but not derivable within the system. That proposition is still true - it’s just unreachable unless you move to a different formal system where the proposition in question is derivable. In layman’s terms, a Gödelian-undecidable proposition is one that is true within the system, but which your system can never alight upon.

There are, of course, subtle technical issues applicable to formal systems, with respect to whether or not they are axiomatically “strong” enough for the Incompleteness Theorem to apply, an interesting outlier being real analysis, which escapes the provisions of the Incompleteness Theorem in part because it admits of quantifier elimination. But expuinding upon that would require spending two decades delving into the minutiae of whether or not the Löwenheim-Skolem Theorem applies to your formal system, a task beset with intimidating hurdles even for skilled mathematicians. Needless to say, I don’t propose even to try taking a detour down that alley - a successful exposition would make me a Fields Medal candidate for one thing …

In short, for every product of pure mathematics that happens to possess utility value in modelling observable physical systems, there are thousands, indeed possibly an infinite number of possible products thereof that don’t exhibit this utility value.

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If anyone cares to follow the links there, they can see how heavily sherloc posted in this thread, but when I posted the proof he’d lied he never revisited it, odd that, well not really that odd.

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Dear lord Sheldon, you posted here so i thought id have a nose… then for context i checked the OP… fuck me! That lad was definitely sniffing paint thinner! Whooooaaahhh.

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After another poster expressed sympathy for sherloc, I was minded too re-read some of the exchanges and see if I hadn’t been too harsh in labelling some his posts as duplicitous, well in retrospect I should have spoken up sooner, and more often.

And yes, “sniffing paint thinner” seems a fair analogy, if he genuinely believes he unfairly accused of duplicity.

LOL … I’m not saying anything to that comment… Everyone has their own style and limits. While it would have been nice to reach Sherlock, it was not important. There were a lot of lurkers who needed the experience.

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Their trust, not there (sic) trust, and I can’t of course speak for other atheists, but I trust the methods of science, as they are demonstrably the most reliable we have for understand reality, as is manifest in its astonishing amount of success in a very short timescale.

No it doesn’t, this facile nonsense doesn’t come close to explaining how the eyes and optic nerves gather the data, and it is this data that is transmitted to the brain, and then interpreted by the brain.

Well your asinine example aside, of course it is not infallible, whoever told you science was infallible? No human method can be infallible, but science remains demonstrably the most reliable.

I also don’t see the word atheists as relevant to your point at all?

It worked to get that message from your brain onto my computer screen, so you seem to be talking nonsense.

All you need for that is a dictionary.
reality
noun

  1. the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.

All I saw was an idiotically facile straw man? And ffs that is not how you spell miserably.

Again what on earth has this to do with atheism? Assuming the facile rhetoric you posted was correct (it’s woefully not) this is not a problem for atheists, it would be a problem for science and anyone who tried to use it, yet as stated, its successes are innumerable in helping us understand reality.

I still don’t, what the fuck does “appears in my mind” even mean? My eyes gather information, and this is transmitted via my optic nerves to my brain, which then interprets the data. Run full tilt into a wall, and note how your eyes and brain combine to warn you of what happened next, the reality will be hard to ignore.

About what, the straw man claims are yours, not science’s, but please do offer some peer reviewed citations to support this nonsense that science does not work, or reflect reality.

No it really is not, the brain interprets the data as an image, and of course that very reliably reflects reality, like you hitting each letter on that keyboard using those eyes.

I don’t think you know what a scientific model is. Scratch that, I am certain that you don’t. Again you could Google the definition in seconds.

We see with our eyes, and our brains interprets it to reflect reality.

Wow, are you trying to produce moronic straw men, only this is some risible nonsense.

Yet it worked every time you wanted to use your eyes and brain to hit a letter on your keyboard? I can’t tell whether you’re trying to be idiotic, or if you really are this ill-informed.

Why would an atheist rely on any explanation involving a deity? Science had nothing to do with atheism, and vice versa.

Oh mama, so ideas and science are not mutually exclusive, and we can add the word religion to the growing list of words you don’t understand the meaning of.

If you think that encapsulates peer review, then this just got a whole lot funnier. There is no brain in the mirror, it’s a polished surface reflecting reality. if you drove a pickaxe through the mirror the real brain would remain unharmed ffs.

What you presented was not a scientific model, but it definitely was crap.

Which atheistic belief system? There must be countless belief systems that don’t encompass theistic belief?

Seriously, catched (sic) up ffs? What are you 8 years old?

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