Web conference of theologians discussing atheism

Debate Room
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The first speaker Jerome Baggett was humorous in his silliness.

Faith and Secularization: A Dialogue (Catholicism in Dialogue)

I am watching it now and thought of you all.

Now it’s the author of “The Nones are All Right”

This seminar was a hoot. They were all completely clueless. It was the flip side of listening to my priest talk about sex. He sounded like a 14 year old school girl.

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1x5 The Joan and Bill Hank Center for the Catholic Intellectual Heritage

Please join us October 1 for

Faith and Secularization: A Dialogue

October 1st, 2020

4:00-5:30 PM CDT

Zoom Forum

Featuring

Jerome Baggett

Paul Lakeland

Kaya Oakes

Our panelists have engaged issues of faith and secularization in significant ways in their work–from the organization of “free thinkers” in the 18th century, to the decline of religion in some quarters in the 19th and 20th centuries, to the rise of the “Nones” in the early 21st century. Jerome Baggett’s recent book The Varieties of Nonreligious Experience: Atheism in American Culture , which focuses on the inner lives and experiences of atheists, will be the jumping off point for our discussion. This work will open up onto larger questions of the relationship between secularism and belief, the religious dimension or instinct in human life, and current practices, particularly in the U.S.

This Zoom event is free and open to the public. Registration Required .

For more information, please visit our website.

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Theologians are suppositional apologists. IE they accept the existence of god(s) as a given, which it is not.

As far as I’m aware , there are only five traditional arguments for the existence of god(s). All have been debunked centuries ago.***

At best to be a theologian is to waste a good mind. At worst it’s just another form of mental masturbation.

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An explanation of Thomas Aquinas’ ‘Five Ways’

http://web.csulb.edu/~cwallis/100/st2.html#:~:text=Thus%20Aquinas'%20five%20ways%20defined,Being%20and%20the%20Grand%20Designer.

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Every now and again I attempt to watch some theologian discuss some topic like, “The New Atheists, Questions Atheists can’t Answer, Why evolution is wrong,” or some such nonsense. I generally can’t get past the first 10 minutes with no less than 6 silly assertion and 3 fallacious positions.

I just end up shaking my head in bewilderment. Are these people intentionally that fucking stupid? My all time favorite “Straw Man” “According to the Atheist world view.” FUCK! Go argue with a cosmologist, biologist, archeologist, historian, or someone who can set you straight. These are scientific world views and have nothing at all to do with Atheism. NOTHING>

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Amen to that…

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In my experience: no.

With the intellectual theists it is often hubris, not stupidity.

eta:
One of the smartest people I ever knew destroyed himself with this non-sense. That roller coaster ride of being a new convert; which came to a sudden stop when he came to believe he’d been cursed by god with leprosy (the doctors said it was psoriasis) and took his own life.

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Sometimes I think they do it to convince themselves. It’s only half about making converts, which they sometimes invite to events like this. It’s about encouraging belief in existing members. Maybe you’d agree.

I remember these things going on in the churches I attended as a little boy. Special sermon series, outside of Sunday services, which amounted to “attacks” on evolution, other religions, atheism, etc. We did “Way of the Master” in fact at one Baptist church, led by a reformed bike gang member, at least supposedly. Ray Comfort was… something else. I saw the banana argument made in real time in a serious context.

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@JoelInbody Which is an interesting tale.

So when a group like that is faced with a difficult topic or event, what is their typical response? Do they turn inward, ignore the outside world and tell each other fairy tales to convince themselves, or turn to the outside world and actually do research and critical thinking in order to arrive at the truth?

I think we know the answer.

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No.

Traditionally, Jesuits and before them the Dominicans were the intellectuals of the Church and the most cunning sophists. So far, I 've never run across a truly stupid theologian.

It has also long been my suspicion that some simply do not believe their own bullshit, although I think most probably do. Although I think at least some are intellectually dishonest.

With hubris comes an often profound ignorance, such as not understanding/refusing to understand the meaning of the word ‘atheist’.

Finally there is the cognitive dissonance which one tends to find among all kinds of true believers.

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I would consider the previous entity in possession of the vatican a TRULY STUPID THEOLOGIAN.!

If I wasn’t involved in Benne Dick resigning, it wasn’t for lack of trying.

Benedict’s response to the pedophile crisis, in addition to adding “Those who habitually lack the use of reason” to the list of those who could be raped with impunity, was to invoke the greatest evil he could think of – women. It’s response to the pedophile crisis was to compare women who want to be priests with pedophiles. The mantra in the Catholic Church is that the priest “represents Christ.” So it’s vision of Christ is a derange predator of children holy SOLELY because ze chose a male form when entering the corporeal realm. This isn’t the Catholic Church, it is the cult of Priapus, especially when all down the line from the pope to the bishops to the local priests they decided that the bestestest response to pedophilia is Benne Dick’s standard lecture on the sanctity of the penis. You should just see their little faces light up with JOY on the subject. Per Jean Vianney, they are now ontologically endowed to be “right next to God!” They can conceive of NOTHING holier. I NEVER think of it as ANYTHING other than - That Which Declared its’ dick god & Offered Our Children in Sacrifice to it. I wrote & told it so, including the T-shirt that perfectly summarized its’ entire religious belief system. “I’m with Stupid - arrow down.” Shortly after, it resigned.
It was the happiest day of my life when it resigned, INCLUDING THE BIRTH OF MY TWO CHILDREN!

They all joyfully sacrificed our children to the gods between their legs; the only god they believe in. The USCCB just voted to be in a full court press last year behind our predator in chief.

They are just so PROUD of their pedophiles!
The Australian canon lawyer and the sociologist published two documents. The first is a legal report entitled “Canon Law – A Systemic Factor in Child Sexual Abuse in the Catholic Church.” (Free download from National Catholic Reporter) written for the Australian government. The second is the lay version “Potiphar’s Wife.” (Buy on line for real money). I verified the information with the author of the second book and the legal firm from the movie Spotlight. A third is “Child Sexual Abuse in the Catholic Church; An Interpretive Review of the Literature and Public Inquiry Report” another free download through the Center for Global Research; School of Global, Urban and Social Studies, RMIT Both books thoroughly document how the vatican ORDERED the bishops to protect the pedophiles starting 100 years ago. They include more detail on the Pontifical Secret that Francis just abolished.

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We do. They turn inward, they talk to each other, they consult the Bible. I don’t know that many of them actually want the real answers to their questions, if their questions could be answered meaningfully. Is there a god? I don’t know, doubt it highly, but you’re not going to find that answer in some apologetics seminar. It’s just repackaged religion which sounds slightly better because it’s dressed up in pseudo-scientific terms or scholarly-ish language.

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We attended these things more to “keep our faith strong”. In other words, reinforce the group think.

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I don’t remember when or where I read this, so may be taken as anecdotal

That in the fifth century, the pope of the day was going to make celibacy of the clergy a rule.

That at that time the pope was advised against such a move because of the sexual abuse which would surely be the result.

Long before the scandal, I had been of the opinion that clerical celibacy attracts sexually immature and inadequate men. Today it is my belief the abuse will continue as long as celibacy rules remain and as long as current canon law is unchanged. IE that full and immediate reporting of abusers to civil authorities becomes a dominant culture within all relevant organisations.

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that is part of the problem and the assessment of the psychologist wife of her husband’s seminary students, but married clergy do bring other problems. It isn’t a magic bullet, but would at least open the field to better candidates.

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Statistically, allowing women as priest would greatly lower the odds that said priest is a child molester. One study said that 96% of child molesters are men. I suppose that a vocation that gives access and power over children could attract woman who molest children too, but the odds appear to make it way less likely.

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Uh - then you get “Nuns” with more power in the church. Women have their own way of “fucking” you.

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This is just my personal impression …

During my time as a repair technician for a telecom company, I had a repair to be performed inside St. Augustine’s Seminary of Toronto. As I traveled down a hallway where the wealth was dripping off the walls …

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It was eerily quiet, the only sounds were my footsteps echoing off the walls. My skin crawled, it was creep city.

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Just so. The nuns who taught me were a bunch of cunts.

IMO the power of nuns comes from their position of teaching the very young. I went to a convent school from age 5 to 10. Fair Dinkum , you wouldn’t believe the shit those rather stupid and ignorant Irish peasants taught us

Some examples : One liked to tell us about the gruesome deaths of some of the martyrs when I was 5 or 6. Gave me nightmares. Mum had words with the mother superior. Then there was the guff about devil. I was about 6. Apparently I began saying “The devil made me do it” . More words with the mother superior.

Of course the official catechism took the biscuit: From the age of 5 we were taught about the trinity, limbo, purgatory and of course hell. The church considers 7 the age of reason. I think the age of abstract thought is some years older. I think that at 7 a child understands cause and effect, but not abstract morality. I was 12 when all that started to sink in. That was accompanied by the inconvenience of a conscience.

I think it could be argued that nuns are the most powerful members of the ‘ordinary’ priestly caste. Because as Aristotle said: “Give Me A Child Until He Is 7 And I Will Show You The Man.”

The laity, Joe Sixpack and his lovely bride have no power. Women least of all. As I’ve mentioned often, a religion always reflects the society which invents it and the people who practice it.

After Paul changed the rules, Christianity was very attractive to women and slaves. Seems they were treated better by the church than their normal place in society. I think that hope of a beautiful afterlife may have been the attraction. :man_facepalming:

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Yair.

Ever seen the Sistine Chapel or The Vatican?*** I saw them and St Peter’s in 1990. It was an overwhelming experience, even for a non believer.

Much of what is now the Vatican was built in the thirteenth century as the palace and garden of pope Nicholas 111. The gardens were originally much bigger and included vineyards.

The Vatican was declared an independent state by then Italian Prime Minister Benito Mussolini with the signing of the Lateran Treaty in 1929. Since that time the Vatican has been widely recognised as a defacto state. EG It has a seat at the United Nations, but does not have voting rights. It also has seats on several influential UN committees.

Controversy still remains about the Vatican and its relationship with the Nazis during and after WW2 ,and more so in Spain, with Franco.
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*** Seminaries such as the one you mentioned do not belong to the church in Rome. They belong to the religious order concerned. Local parish churches schools etc belong either to an order or to the parish as a separate legal entity .
Of course the Roman church as been amassing wealth for over 1500 years.

Not hard to accumulate wealth when people leave and bequeath stuff to an organisation over centuries and said organisation pays no taxes.

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Yes indeed, nuns is practically an anagram for cunts. :laughing:

My brother went to a catholic secondary school, and voiced a similar impression. The cunt part, not my lame anagram joke…

I’ve been to Rome once saw St Peter’s square, as you say one cannot fail to be impressed, even a heathen like me. Though simultaneously disappointed that so much energy and talent is wasted in the saccharine worship of a fictional deity.

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I have that impression on every religious building I have visited from some of the Mayan temples, to Lincoln cathedral, Notre Dame, Lyons Ancienne, St Pauls in London, the Vatican in its tawdry entirety, so many Roman temples and remains of Greek and Etruscan places of worship…

The most moving places I have have found are those roadside shrines and temples, found on every human roadside, only the remains in “civilized countries” yet actively preserved and revered in not so materialistic places.

The most “holy” places I have found? oh every National Library and museum in the world that I have had the good fortune to visit.

Fuck ignorance…like “sperm is a drop of water” obviously never had a wank in his life the fuckwit.

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