The language of god?

I came across a creationist youtube video that claimed DNA was gods language used to create life. Also that it was solid proof, because its just too complex to come in to existence ‘by accident’, especially when paired with histones which as a set have ‘irreducible complexity’.

They also compared the working of DNA to god creating people by ‘knitting’. As the threads can look somewhat like mechanical knitting driven by some sort of intelligence. (also provided some obscure scripture reference, which I am not sure is theologically sound)

I found this series of animated science videos representing DNA. They are Very interesting, and fascinating. But with this type of video, it seems like it could be injecting some type of anthropopathism, as the video almost makes it seem like the molecules ‘know’ what they are doing. As if they have agency, forethought, intelligence. But could this be misleading in its presentation? Note: this video is not Christian apologetics as far as I know.

I personally dislike the terms ‘by accident’ and 'irreducible complexity" and also comparing DNA to human language. It seems like an illusion. I can’t recall the term, but its like seeing a human face on mars, when its just how the shadows appear at a certain angle.

This assertion seems to be an argument from personal incredulity fallacy, also a false dichotomy fallacy. It’s not choice between “accident” whatever this means here, as it is suitably vague, or a deity, since there is no objective evidence a deity exists, or is even possible, why is it an option at all?

Also the building blocks of DNA and RNA, nucleobases, have been found in meteorites and asteroids. No deity evidenced or needed.

As you should, since the first is a vague description, that in religious apologetics often entirely lacks any understanding of probability. While the second is demonstrably an attempt to reverse the theistic burden of proof, and has all the appearance of an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

If a deity exists, or is even possible, then those who believe this must demonstrate it, not assume it from the lack of an alternative explanation (for anything), or because they create alternatives, which they then subjectively label “impossible” without any explanation or evidence, which seems like an argument from personal incredulity fallacy to me.

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Already dealt with this creationist garbage some time ago.

Thanks to 80 years of prebiotic chemistry research, we don’t need an imaginary cartoon magic man from a ridiculous Bronze Age mythology to explain DNA. The same holds with respect to the biosphere, or any physical system of interest to scientists - relevant scientific research has provided proper explanations in terms of testable natural processes.

EDIT : almost forgot to mention a salient fact with respect to that above link to the document I compiled some time ago … when I wrote that, the list of references covered 96 scientific papers. That list has since been expanded, and I shall have to write an updated 2025 version at some point to reflect recent scientific advances, such as the advent of mechanochemistry and its application to prebiotic syntheses. A future version of that document could take the reference list past the 100 mark with ease.

As soon as you can!!! I love beating creatards down with actual science…even though I dont understand half of it. The volume alone crushes them…and it is better for the watchers…

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I don’t necessarily dislike them, rather, I find them silly.

For “by accident”, ask them to explain the term. Chances are they will start using additional silliness. When you start pointing out facts about the millions of “accidents” in nature, they might end up putting their fingers in their ears and yell, “Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah.”

As for “irreducible complexity,” ask them how far they want to reduce a given item…body parts? Cells? Chemicals? Atoms? Particles? Quarks? Cuz if it’s quarks or electrons, then as far as we know, they are correct. :smirk:

New February 2025 Version Now available … enjoy!

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Of course! I think they are looking for a different word. An "accident’ implies something else. One could have an intention to do something, and it goes wrong, and produces a different outcome, usually negative.

I think they are looking for ‘chance’, and that is something I think is probably closer to what happened in the development of life. Fortunate? clusters of chance events, except there isn’t anyone guiding the outcome.

Yes, that is suspect that random ‘words’ or letters would appear in space objects that are not in the process of producing life. Is there any evidence that this DNA and RNA was once alive, in some extra terrestrial source?

I think it’s time that we deal with the “random chance” creationist canards and related garbage once and for all. And in that vein, I’ll present here the draft of a forthcoming detailed exposition on the subject.

It’s blatantly obvious that none of the usual suspects either understand what the word “random” means in rigorous scientific circles, or have any inclination to learn this, not least because doing so would destroy their worthless apologetic lies at a stroke.

In rigorous scientific circles, the word random has a very specific meaning. Namely, a random process is any process whose outcome conforms to a well-defined probability distribution, and which can be modelled by a Markov chain process.

This will, of course, need some explanation for those unfamiliar with the above definition and its import.

First of all, a Markov chain process is any process that involves well-defined transitions between states, in such a manner that there may exist more than one possible transition between any two arbitrarily chosen states. As a corollary, in the absence of any information allowing us to determine which of the multiple transitions actually occurs between those states in a given instance, the multiple options are assigned probabilities. I shall now link to a useful and more detailed exposition that can be read at leisure.

There are two essential points to make here. The first being that in the case of a Markov chain process, each of the transitions is frequently considered to be a deterministic process leading to the state change. For example, if we examine in detail the chemical reactions leading to a particular type of point mutation in DNA, we may find that there are three sets of chemical reactions leading to that state change. Each of those chemical reactions is a deterministic process, but if we do not have information telling us which of those three options took place in a given instance, then we have to model the process as a Markov chain process. While the different options have probabilities associated with them (which in this case, can be determined by an appropriate experimental setup), each option in this example is a deterministic process - the very opposite of the duplicitous “happened by chance for no reason” creationist caricature.

The second point is that since the outcome conforms to a well-defined probability distribution, this means that there must exist a constraint upon the outcome, and where there exists a constraint upon the outcome of physical interactions, there is a mechanism underpinning this. We may not know the details of that mechanism, but we can be sure it exists, because the only other option is magic. The moment we introduce magic into the discussion, we’re not dealing with science any more, or indeed, any proper systematic understanding of our surroundings.

Indeed, that principle above, that a mechanism must exist governing the outcome in some way, frequently leads to fruitful searches for said mechanism. Which frequently takes one of three forms - a low pass filter, a band pass filter, or a high pass filter.

Well, guess what? Natural selection (or indeed selection by human agents) is a high pass filter, with respect to relevant criteria. The criteria in each instance may be different, but the principle remains the same. Namely, that some criteria are deemed, either by nature or by human agents, to be measures of fitness, and selection propels the entities being selected up the slope to a local fitness maximum. Indeed, one of the great insights in biology, has been that selection can arise as a result of impersonal, non-sentient natural forces. The presence of pathogens, predators, even weather, can affect the outcome with respect to the growth or otherwise of a population of living organisms, and the observational data informing us of this is now voluminous.

The above is routinely pressed into service in simulations, using what is known as the Monte Carlo method, a topic that has entire textbooks devoted to it for those who genuinely wish to learn more.Those simulations frequently produce outcomes that are as far removed from “happened by chance for no reason” as it’s possible to be, outside of actual deterministic physics.

Indeed, in many areas of science, the word random, given that above definition, is used as a shorthand for “we don’t have the audit trail of data telling us what happened precisely in these instances, so we’ll use a Markov chain model to assist our understanding thereof”. In areas where we don’t have a full audit trail of data, Markov chain modelling becomes in some instances a necessity, and its no less valid than any other scientific tool - indeed, the list of applications is now huge, and this link provides a brief flavour of the applicability of Markov chain processes.

There’s a large body of rigorous mathematics underpinning the use of Markov chains, and indeed that link immediately above provides some examples of that underpinning mathematics.

So, can we, once and for all, take the duplicitous creationist caricature of “random” out into the courtyard and shoot it? Ideally along with all the duplicitous caricatures they peddle?

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The problem is we are using language that might be wholly inadequate for the ideas we are trying to understand. I imagine this is often the case, when we are trying to understand new ideas. This will be especially true when we lack the latest scientific understanding.

A large clue they’re making up a subjective claim is the word probability is as absent as any kind of maths to support it.

The addition of unevidenced deities from archaic superstition, using inexplicable magic, simply speaks for itself…how are they calculating the probability of something they can’t even demonstrate is possible?

Yeah, they love to say that, but that statement is just an opinion, at best.

Exactly, what’s the threshold for “accidents” of this type I wonder, and how did they calculate it exactly? While they’re showing their maths, they can explain how they calculated the probability of divine creation using supernatural & inexplicable magic, given they can’t demonstrate that either is even possible.

Creationist fake “probability” assertions don’t involve any genuine calculations, let alone anything that would be regarded as actual mathematics (as in deriving relevant equations from first principles). they involve copy-pasting whatever fabrications they’ve spooned up from the Duplicity Institute, who specialise in this branch of creationist lying.

I seem to recall dealing with this nonsense in the past, with respect to such matters as the Serial Trials Fallacy and the “One True Sequence” Fallacy.

Thank you, that is a far better response than what I could have anticipated. But having finished a full day of hard work, I will probably have to read this on a day I am fully rested, without distraction.

I totally see it now, I read some critique that atheists are just too brainy, and condescending. I actually can see the brainy part, but I don’t detect any condescending tone, just very factual, and intelligent.

Its a difficult thing to say, but atheism probably will never be popular until something like this can be ‘dumbed down’ to the religious level. That would take a tremendous amount of skill to do that, while still remaining true to the content. I am not sure it could be done, but if anyone does that would be a winner. Also, if it could placed in the context of something ‘beautiful’ as religious people see it, but better. Also if they could see it as ‘saving’ information, that gives them hope. (I am actually not sure what those mean, as I think the truth should do all of those, no problem, and without the need for the supernatural)

I think it’s actually education that has decreased religiosity. Continuing to promote and increase that, particularly in STEM, rather than any effort to ‘dumb down’ anything would be more effective and beneficial.

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I am not sure that education will necessarily make one non-religious.
Perhaps nothing will uproot a cultural tendency to religiosity. On a Hindu website, someone commented that one can launch a rocket, and land a rover on the moon, and then praise an elephant headed god, or the man-lion, narasimha…

There is a certain type of creationist that does work in evolutionary biology, chemistry etc…and maintains and advances belief in the Bible.

So, I am not sure that education will necessarily be the answer. What can atheism provide EMOTIONALLY, that religion is fulfilling…what culturally is it not meeting, that religion is giving them?

Maybe atheists need to compose hymns, have a theme song or something…

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The question is ill-posed, and I tend to think it is a red herring, as it distracts from the very definition of the word atheist - being without a god. Atheism is, in its basic form, quite simply lliving your life without a god. It’s in the word - “a-theist”, without a god. As such, it is not a philosophy of life or a belief system. You’ll have to go elsewhere for that. Also, those that lack a belief in a god - the a-theists - are quite diverse, from diverse national, cultural, political, educational, familial, and socio-economic backgrounds. So you’ll really have to look at all those factors to figure out what is relevant for the individual.

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That is so odd, because I tend to see a lot in common with atheists, and a sort of culture. The very word unfortunately gives the sense that one is ‘loosing something’ if one becomes ‘atheist’. If only religion could be the something with the -a- in the front.

Some clarification, please:

  1. How are you defining culture?
  2. You tend to see? Are you able to quantify it?
  3. The word atheist gives a sense of loss? To whom?
  4. As to the a-…do you think the same about other words with it?

Askeptical? Adiscerning? Aprudent? :face_with_raised_eyebrow: :thinking: :rofl:

First of all, complexity is not an indicator of design. We detect design by contrasting it with things that are naturally occurring.
In engineering, the best design is that which is just complex enough, to reliably, efficiently, and accurately get the job done.
There are an uncountable number of things in nature, if they were designed, the designer would be amazingly inept.

DNA is not a language or a code.
It is purely chemistry.
Scientists often use the terms language and code, in metaphorical ways, not literal.

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