The god of the meddlers

If there is an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God, it is obvious that we cannot know Him as an object, or even as an external subject, but only as an active foundation of our own self-awareness, maximally present as such at the very moment that the consciousness, taking possession of itself, wonders for Him. Such is the method of those who understand the subject, like Plato, Aristotle, Sto. Augustine, St. Francis de Sales, the mystics of Philocalia or Louis Lavelle.

When a Richard Dawkins or a Daniel Dennett examines the question of a “Supreme Being” who would have “created the world” and naturally comes to the conclusion that this Being does not exist, they reason as if they were present at creation as external observers and, worse still, external observers of whose intimate constitution the omnipresent God had been kind enough to be absent for a moment so that they could observe Him from the outside and witness His existence or nonexistence. This objectified God does not and cannot exist, for it is logically self-contradictory. Dawkins, Dennett and tutti quanti are absolutely right to declare it non-existent, since they invented it themselves. And yet, due to a kind of unconscious cunning, they took care to conceive it in such a way that the empirical proofs of its inexistence are, strictly speaking, infinite, being able to be found not only in this universe but in all possible universes, since the impossibility of self-contradiction is universal to a maximum extent and in an eminent sense, not depending on the physical constitution of this or any other universe.

If you don’t “believe” in the God of the Bible, it makes no logical or methodological difference in your attempt to investigate His existence or nonexistence, when that attempt is honest. Whatever the case, you can only discuss the existence of a previously defined object if you discuss it according to the definition given at the beginning and not changing the definition in the course of the conversation, which is equivalent to changing objects and discussing something else. If God is defined as omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, it is from this God that you have to demonstrate the inexistence, and not from any other god that you yourself invented according to the convenience of what you intend to prove.

The Dawkins and Dennetts method is based on a logical error so primary, so grotesque, that it is enough not only to disqualify them intellectually in that particular domain, but to cast a shadow of suspicion on the whole of what they have written on any other subjects, although it is possible that incompetent people on an issue that they deem fundamental for all humanity reveal some ability to deal with secondary problems, where their emotional overload is minor.

Far from being able to be investigated as an object of the outside world, God is also defined in the Bible as a person, and as a sui generis person who maintains an intimate and secret dialogue with each human being and indicates an inner path to know Him. Only if you look for evidence of that person in the depths of your soul and you do not find them in any way, even following precisely the indications given in the definition, will you be able to declare that God does not exist. Otherwise you will be proclaiming the absence of another god, in which the Bible will fully agree with you, with the only difference that you imagine, or pretend to imagine, that that god is that of the Bible.

When the enemy of faith makes an effort to stick to the biblical definition, it always does so in a partial and caricatured way, with results even worse than in the “creation” argument. Dawkins argues against omniscience, asking how God could be aware of all the thoughts of all human beings all the time. The question is formulated in an absurd way, taking self-awareness as objects that existed per se and questioning the possibility of knowing everyone at the same time ex post facto. But self-awareness is not an object. It is a faltering power, which constitutes itself and conquers itself insofar as it asks for its own foundation and, not finding it within its own limits, it is led to open up to more and more awareness, until it ends in a source that transcends the universe of its experience and to note that from that source, unattainable in itself, comes, in a repeatedly verifiable way, its strength to intensify itself. Ten lines by Louis Lavelle on this subject, or the paragraph in which Aristotle defines God as noesis noeseos, the self-awareness of self-awareness, are worth more than all the works that Dawkins and Dennett could write over infinite earthly existences. A God who “observes” all consciences from the outside is a character from old wives’ tale, specially invented to prove his own non-existence. Instead of asking how this god would be possible, knowing in advance that it is impossible, the qualified philosopher starts from the opposite question: how is self-awareness possible? God does not know self-awareness as an external observer, but as a transcendent foundation of its possibility of existence. But you only realize this if, instead of playing logic with invented concepts, you investigate the thing seriously from your own inner experience, with the maturity of a well-trained philosopher and an extensive knowledge of the status quaestionis.

What kills philosophy in today’s world is amateurism, the meddling of meddlers who, ignoring the very formulation of the issues they discuss, delight in inconsequential and childish thinking, even more ridiculous when adorned with a “science” veneer.

Why do you insist on referring to the bible? **This an atheist forum ** The bible is not accepted here as an authority. My positions is that the bible seems to be mythology and Jesus a mythological figure This because there is no empirical evidence for anything in the bible, including the historicity of Jesus.

Really. By that sentence, you have implied that you are a professional philosopher. What degree do you have, and from which University?

You seem determined to try to argue god into existence. Has never been done, ever, not once in recorded history. So far every claim about any gods, anywhere, have been unfalsifiable. (look it up)

You have mentioned faith, more than once, yet show no understanding of the meaning of the word.:
Faith is defined as belief in things not seem.

Ironically, I keep needing to quote the gospels on this matter. Jesus himself is recorded as admonishing his followers to believe blindly in him:

John 20:29 : “Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” (KJV)

As far as I’m aware, the first record of a philosopher trying to argue god into existence was Aristotle, who proposed the cosmological/first cause/intelligent design argument. It was refuted then then and has been refuted to the present time . EG when used by those intellectual giants Ray Comfort and Ken Ham…

In the thirtteen, Thomas Aquinas proposed 'Five ways/ Five proofs for existence of God, including the cosmological. He did not succeed,

MY position is that I reject the claim that God can be argued into existence. If only because no one has manged to do so in recorded history, which from memory, I think is about 5000 years…

I demand empirical evidence and will accept nothing less… IF you have it, wonderful, you’re up for a Nobel prize. If not, stop wasting my time, it’s really boring.

PS Your pretentions to intellectualism are not convincing. The way your post is presented implies that the essay is your original work. Please forgive my suspicion, I’m a sceptic and a weak philosopher. However, we have a some pretty good thinkers here who will correct me if I’m mistaken and you are actually the possessor of a first class mind. :face_with_monocle:

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I strongly recommend you read the explanations of Aquinas’ Five Ways linked below

St.

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Below is a link to an edited version of the famous 1948 radio debate on the existence of God. It features Bertrand Russell, arguably the greatest philosopher in the twentieth century. His opponent is top Catholic philosophy and theologian of his time, Frederick Copleston SJ. Copleston uses the contingency/cosmological argument for the existence of god. He does not succeed.

This link is to a study guide of the debate.

Yes it does seem to be “original” in that the word order is not exactly the same as all the other “faith” based, tired and threadbare arguments presented here by pseudo intellectuals, muppets, and plagiarists alike.

The whole “essay” can be reduced to one sentence; *The belief in a particular god or gods is predicated by unwitnessed, unfalsifiable, personal experience. * In this case the author chooses the “god” of the bible.

Campello is merely dressing the mannequin with his use of long, redundant corpulent sentences. They do not convince me of his claimed intellectual status. His argument is vapid and nonsensically overwrought.

Ah. M’kay. My bad. My apologies to the :innocent:muppet.

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What the FUCK??? I don’t even think I can attempt to break down this Bullshit.

God is an active — “active” In what fucking way is any god active. Demonstrate an action any god has ever taken. Show us the action and demonstrate the direct link to your idea of a God.

Foundation??? #1. When are foundations active? Now there is an oxymoron if ever there was one. If this God thing is a foundation or even foundational, explain how 30,000 Christian sects all get it wrong and no one can point to or understand what it is that is foundational about this God thing.

Foundational to “Self Awareness:” Obviously you have no idea at all what “self awareness” is. Dolphins, Chimpanzees and Elephants all have self awareness and… guess what?.. no gods! Children take a huge step in self awareness between 15 and 24 months, whether or not they have a God foundation. (Reference the “rouge test,”) Your assertions are idiotic. High school children suffer from an over abundance of self awareness, with or without your silly God thing. NO GOD NEEDED> and most definitely NOT maximally present. (Where in the fuck did you copy this shit from?)

Name Dropping does not help the idiotic nature of your inane assertions.

Why would anyone question Richard Dawkins about a supreme being. He is a biologist. Why not ask him about evolution. His personal beliefs have nothing to do with the existence or non-existence of your silly idea of God.

Daniel Dennett is a cognitive scientist whose research centers on the philosophy of mind. Does it really matter that he does not believe in a god either? Perhaps if you had a reasonable argument for the existence of a god, you could convince him. Personally, I could care less what he believes.

If you want to argue with Dawkins and Dennett, what in the fuck are you doing here? They both have websites. I think you are confused. There are no leaders for atheists. We have no Popes, no Preachers, no Law Givers, no Dogma, no Rituals, you are beating a dead horse. Each and every line you write is a complete waste of time.

The only thing amateurish is your moronic attempt at expressing some sort of opinion adorned in a veneer of pseudo intellectualism, random plagiarized quotations and ignorant assertions with NO FOUNDATION at all. You just toss out words and assertions as if you are actually communicating but your amorphous superfluous verbosity renders any and all efforts at communication completely ineffective.

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The god you and other theists describe is the definition of absolute perfection–a being that is unchanging everywhere and across all time. Of course, such a being would never be able to create anything, since the very act of creation would detract from that perfection. So the existence of the cosmos is itself proof of the non-existence of a perfect deity.

Or do you perhaps believe in an imperfect deity who one day woke up with an itch that could only be scratched by creating a universe?

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“campello
If there is an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God,”

“IF …”

and IF there is not … then your entire word salad of an assertion is an exercise in futility … “full of sound and fury … Signifying nothing.”

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OK, who ordered the enormous word salad? I don’t want any, so I’m not splitting the bill with whoever ordered it.

  1. You can’t prove something empirically. Instead of arguing about this: why don’t you just give us an example?
  2. I’m not sure what an infinite proof would even look like.

Is that like being “a little bit pregnant”?

Awwwww fuck! Standing from the table… errrrr… I gotta go to the men’s room. Be back in a second… Monkey tail last seen exiting the restaurant lobby and catching a ride on the back of a Chiquita truck. “You’re not sticking me with the fucking bill!”

Of course not, silly. It’s like being very pregnant.

I was going to suggest a need to understand what our current crop of clueless wonders mean rather than getting confused by what they actually say. Don’t bother, I’ve tried it, and ended up more confused than when I began.

Why not? The christian god often revealed himself in old testament times. So why not today?

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Because Jesus set aside the Law of Moses (Paul said so) Except of course when it suits the hypocrites to quote the Torah, such as to condemn homosexuality. (there is no reference in the New testament to Jesus on homosexuality) Of course they ignore the Torah where it condones abortion .

Also perhaps YHWH of the Torah is a total cunt. Exactly the kind of god to be expected from a nomadic tribe of illiterate bronze age goat herders.

That god made the rules. If he changed his mind and decided to play hide-and-seek, he can also change his mind and reveal himself in this time.

OH absolutely--------but I wouldn’t hold my breath. :thinking:

Camello,
You wrote:

BlockquoteIf there is an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God, it is obvious that we cannot know Him as an object, or even as an external subject, but only as an active foundation of our own self-awareness, maximally present as such at the very moment that the consciousness, taking possession of itself, wonders for Him.

So God is strictly subjective, amirite? If so, his existence is wishful thinking by your own admission.

Campello,

You wrote:

When a Richard Dawkins or a Daniel Dennett examines the question of a “Supreme Being” who would have “created the world” and naturally comes to the conclusion that this Being does not exist, they reason as if they were present at creation as external observers and, worse still, external observers of whose intimate constitution the omnipresent God had been kind enough to be absent for a moment so that they could observe Him from the outside and witness His existence or nonexistence.>

Neither Dawkins nor Dennett nor anyone else has to be present at the so-called beginning of the Universe to demonstrate that a God does not exist. An Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent, Eternal, Perfect Being is self-contradictory and contradictory of a Natural Universe prima facie, a priori, et ipso facto, no empirical observation required (although that refutes it too.)

Campello,

You wrote (Again, Bullwinkle?):

Far from being able to be investigated as an object of the outside world, God is also defined in the Bible as a person, and as a sui generis person who maintains an intimate and secret dialogue with each human being and indicates an inner path to know Him. Only if you look for evidence of that person in the depths of your soul and you do not find them in any way, even following precisely the indications given in the definition, will you be able to declare that God does not exist. Otherwise you will be proclaiming the absence of another god, in which the Bible will fully agree with you, with the only difference that you imagine, or pretend to imagine, that that god is that of the Bible.

I don’t have a “soul,” but I do have a mind, and that mind does not grant the authority of The Holy Bible or any other proported “holy book” to establish the existence of the God mentioned therein, nor the exiatence of any other God. Nor has my mind heard any conversings of any God outside of any so-called “holy books.” No credible sources means no evidence.

Please, come correct and try harder.

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