Forum strings often take on a life of their own, so to speak. By requesting people respond to you in a separate string makes responses to what you’ve posted exceedingly difficult. Was that the plan?
No, remember I am relatively new to these forums.
I also want to reaffirm I am attempting to be intellectually honest here, and I also want to bridge the impasse.
Be it my own lack of understanding or yours.
I am beginning to believe the issue is being caused by my own miscomprehension, but I am failing to see where or how.
‘I want to believe as many true things as possible, and disregard as many false things as possible.’ - Matt Dillahunty. A quote I adhere to.
I will also add, I am running out of steam and shall be taking a break, so post your messages and I’ll attempt to tackle them as honestly as I can on my return.
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If you mean it is objectively immoral to cut short the life of a sentient animal then no, that’s a subjective opinion, as obviously many people would not agree.
How so?
This just a repetition of the claim though, can you explain why it is objectively immoral to harm an animal? You seem to be fixating on whether harm is caused, but that is irrelevant, the point is why do you believe it is objectively immoral to cause harm, rather than just a subjective opinion? After all it is obvious others don’t share this opinion.
No, I stated plainly if one held the subjective opinion that swearing is immoral, then it is an objectively true that removing people’s tongues would stop them swearing, this would not make it objectively moral to remove their tongues though. Just as if one believed it was immoral to harm an animal, then it would be objectively true that being a vegetarian would make this less likely, but it would not make it objectively moral.
That;s a circular reasoning fallacy, and if you’re going to claim something is objectively moral in a debate forum, then yes you absolutely need to explain why you think this.
Why is cutting short someone’s life objectively immoral? Was it immoral to fight Nazi Germany then? That cut short quite a few lives after all. Morals are subjective, they are also relative.
Yes but you have yet to explain why causing harm is objectively immoral?
I think it strongly does if you cannot find even one example.
Without offering a subjective opinion or argument, explain why?
It’s a straw man because I am not disputing when harm is being caused, only that it is a subjective opinion that causing harm is immoral.
Don’t arguments generally do this?
I will only say that I have never seen an example of an objectively moral act, they always involve subjective opinion. This YouTube video explain why all morality is subjective very well, if you are interested take a look.
Either way I’d need sufficient objective evidence that violence is “objectively” immoral, and I am dubious anyone can do this, since morality os also relative.
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Yes, you made an attempt. Just stick with the difficult to quantify. I also showed you the other side and then 'Stuck with the (Difficult to Quantify). Because THAT IS THE CASE!!
You eat, you kill.
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I’ve been through this with Sheldon here:
trying to define an objective standard for morality.
I offered “transcendental love”. It was rejected by his highness. 
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Since no one can offer any objective evidence that morality itself is objective, I remain dubious. If someone could do so I would re-examine my position obviously.
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There is no objective standard of morality. I reject transcendental love. Now what are you going to do?
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He could demonstrate some objective evidence for a love beyond desire, attachment, loss, devotion, sacrifice, forsaking, and beyond a state of relationship. Though he did fail to do this in the previous thread he cited of course. Though even then I’d need a compelling argument and some objective evidence as to why this was evidence for objective morality. I remain dubious I must say.
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If people follow God as he has asked would this have happened?
Testing actions with the word of God tells us. We all have the obligation to love (not only this man) but each of us. Are any of us perfect? Does the fact that we are naturally imperfect excuse us?
“If I speak with the tongues of mankind and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give away all my possessions to charity, and if I surrender my body so that I may glory, but do not have love, it does me no good. Love is patient, love is kind, it is not jealous; love does not brag, it is not arrogant. It does not act disgracefully, it does not seek its own benefit; it is not provoked, does not keep an account of a wrong suffered, it does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; it keeps every confidence, it believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we know in part and prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, and love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”
1 Corinthians 13:1-13
Are you asserting that everyone has an obligation to love everyone?
If so, that seems exceedingly silly to me.
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Which god, and why do you ask?
The rest is just preaching sorry, did you want to join the debate?
Yes it is obligatory. Then you are okay when people are rude towards you? Arrogant towards you? Lie to you?
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Obligatory? Horse shit!
As to your second, etc. statements, what has that got to do with love for everyone being obligatory? Obligatory according to whom?
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I don’t believe you, offer some objective evidence to support this claim.
That’s a false dichotomy fallacy, those are clearly not the only two choices we are faced with, love everyone or be rude, arrogant and lie to them, that’s asinine nonsense. There are billions of people I do none of those to, even people I meet and know I don’t need to do any of those things to.
What about how rude you’re being by preaching to us in your post above?
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No chance in hell Mr. Goody 2 shoes. I just want other people to leave me the hell alone, not “love” me.
If I don’t like the way other people treat me(apart from my family), I’ll gladly tell them to go fuck themselves.
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[
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household” (Matthew 10:34-36).
“If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: but thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God”
](Deuteronomy 13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, w | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now)
Yeah, shit like this could never happen if you followed God.
15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them.
16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.
5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence. You hate all who do wrong;
6 I hate those who cling to worthless idols; as for me, I trust in the LORD
2 In their own eyes they flatter themselves too much to detect or hate their sin.
10 Let those who love the LORD hate evil, for he guards the lives of his faithful ones and delivers them from the hand of the wicked.
1 There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens:3 a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build,8 a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.
Your God sounds like an IDIOT!
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“Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every sickness. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and his brother Andrew; and James the son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who also betrayed Him. These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them, saying, “Do not go on a road to Gentiles, and do not enter a city of Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those with leprosy, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give. Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, or a bag for your journey, or even two tunics, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is deserving of his support. And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city. As you enter the house, give it your greeting. If the house is worthy, see that your blessing of peace comes upon it. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace. And whoever does not receive you nor listen to your words, as you leave that house or city, shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment, than for that city. “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be as wary as serpents, and as innocent as doves. But be on guard against people, for they will hand you over to the courts and flog you in their synagogues; and you will even be brought before governors and kings on My account, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for what you are to say will be given you in that hour. For it is not you who are speaking, but it is the Spirit of your Father who is speaking in you. “Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. “But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. It is enough for the disciple that he may become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they insult the members of his household! “So do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. What I tell you in the darkness, tell in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim on the housetops. And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are two sparrows not sold for an assarion? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all counted. So do not fear; you are more valuable than a great number of sparrows. “Therefore, everyone who confesses Me before people, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before people, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to turn a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a person’s enemies will be the members of his household. “The one who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and the one who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And the one who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. The one who has found his life will lose it, and the one who has lost his life on My account will find it. “The one who receives you receives Me, and the one who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. The one who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and the one who receives a righteous person in the name of a righteous person shall receive a righteous person’s reward. And whoever gives one of these little ones just a cup of cold water to drink in the name of a disciple, truly I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward.””
Matthew 10:1-42 NASB2020
Needs the context.
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The context being it is all unevidenced hearsay, the earliest copies of which are dated to decades after the events they purport to describe.
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This is under the old covenant before Christ. Within its time and context if/when Israel left God and served other gods other nations would come and defeat them and enslave them, etc.
God exists and is the creator but if Israel decided to go and do what they wanted how is that not a slap on God’s face? He brought them out of Egypt out of slavery after they pleaded with God. He gave them water out of a rock and bread and meat to their satisfaction, their clothes didn’t wear out neither did their sandals. He guided and covered them with a cloud how is it okay to just turn your face on someone you love?
The law was given to show how we are sinners.
Christ came to do what we could not do, (now that its to not only the Jew but also to the gentile) because we were slaves to sin so Christ humbled himself to the cross for what we all deserve. If we live in Christ we are longer under sin but under grace. Christ did what no man could do and died for the sins of his enemies.
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