Some Objections against Atheism from the Pratyabhijna viewpoint

Disclaimer: The following post presents a detailed and extended defense of theism, along with a critical examination of atheism, from the philosophical standpoint of Hindu Pratyabhijna idealism. Because the discussion is necessarily elaborate and may be quite lengthy, readers are kindly requested to approach it with patience and an open mind, carefully considering the arguments and evaluating them in the light of sound reasoning, proper scientific understanding, and logical analysis.

An atheist position generally depends on rejecting the following kinds of arguments for theism:

1. Personal Experience

Atheists often overlook the fact that even the evaluation of supposedly objective empirical data occurs through our own psycho-physical apparatus. Neither colours nor numbers exist “out there” in themselves, and constructs such as the space-time continuum, latitudes, and longitudes are essentially more refined and accurate ways of describing what we observe , much like earlier explanations (e.g., demons swallowing the sun) were attempts to describe phenomena. The difference lies in degree of explanatory sophistication, not in kind. Even systems of measurement and arbitrary units are ultimately standardized subjective conventions.

Objection: Personal experience does not shape the objective world. Imagination is not the same as reality. Our conventions may be arbitrary, but they still correspond to real phenomena, unlike something like a “spaghetti monster,” which has no observational basis. Scientific theories are tested and confirmed against observed data.

Response: But is that really so? Does a bat perceive the world the same way you do?

Objection: Bats detect certain sensory inputs that humans cannot directly perceive. Something nonexistent cannot be perceived.

Response: If that is the case, how do we perceive a dragon?

Objection: We do not actually perceive dragons.

Response: Then how do we speak about them?

Opponent: Because we imagine them.

Response: If we imagine them, does imagination somehow escape perception? If so, how do we perceive imagination, hallucinations, or dreams?

Opponent: What you experience is simply the result of neural activity in your brain. These things exist only in your head.

Response: But do we not experience everything through our heads? What exactly distinguishes something “imagined” from something considered “real”? Do properties like colour exist objectively in the external world? Physically speaking, colours correspond to certain wavelengths of vibration. Yet the perception of motion or vibration itself is relative and dependent on our frame of reference. When something appears to move, how do we know whether it is the object vibrating or our perception shifting? How do we distinguish motion itself from the perception of motion?

No supposedly objective observation can completely remove the subjective framework through which all knowledge is filtered. Even inductive scientific methods are devised through human conventions, and their results are interpreted through prior conceptual assumptions.

Opponent: This is because matter exists independently. The motion of particles exists regardless of our perception; otherwise it would be subject to our will like imagination. Therefore an external world must exist, and the patterns we observe are independent of subjective judgment. Errors arise only from our incomplete understanding.

Response: Are our emotions subject to our will? If so, why do hallucinations occur? They are clearly not voluntary.

Opponent: Because of defects in neural processes. The physical world is a closed system.

Response: A closed system is not what is being questioned here. That criticism applies to Cartesian dualism, where two distinct substances interact inexplicably. Our position instead rejects materialism and maintains that the closed system is not material in nature. Moreover, if hallucinations arise purely from defective physical processes, what evidence proves that ordinary perception is not itself the result of some “defect”? How exactly do we define “normal” perception when normative standards themselves are arbitrary? A bat perceives wavelengths we cannot detect so whose perception is defective?

Objection: But without a mind-independent reality, the diversity of subjective experiences regarding the same object would be impossible.

Response: What exactly is this “material substratum”? The qualities used to define it such as extension, solidity, colour, motion etc have already been shown to depend on subjective conditions. If sensory systems change, the perceived object becomes entirely different. How would a bacterium perceive the same object?

Objection: Can colour be perceived without an objective frequency behind it?

Response: How can you directly prove a frequency you never observe without interpretation? Numerical systems themselves are conceptual constructs. Colours are qualitative experiences in the brain, yet we have no clear explanation of how colourless neurons produce coloured experience. Similarly, physical processes are described objectively, but they somehow give rise to subjective awareness - something not apparent in the processes themselves.

The concept of frequency relies on the idea of waves, which again is interpreted through our perception of motion relative to a resting medium. Motion and rest are defined only relative to one another. Even in physics, concepts like kinetic and potential energy are interdependent; one cannot be fully defined without reference to the other. Likewise, notions such as mass or space-time curvature remain theoretical constructs used to model observations. Saying that time dilation occurs because of “space-time curvature” is still a model , essentially a mathematical representation of observations.

If nothing purely objective is directly accessible, what kind of “objective evidence” can be demanded? Objects independent of perception remain unobserved and therefore unproven. Yet whatever is perceived must in some sense exist for perception to occur at all.

Objection: But without actual atomic vibration, frequency and motion could not be perceived.

Response: What exactly is this “atom”? Physics itself debates whether it behaves as a particle or a wave, and the physical meaning of wave-function collapse remains controversial. What we possess is an effective mathematical framework that predicts observations accurately, but the underlying ontology remains uncertain.

Furthermore, when we recall a perception from memory, the external atom is absent, yet the experience appears again internally. If similar neural processes can produce similar experiences in both cases, the empirical distinction between perception and imagination becomes less clear.

Opponent: This is just a “God of the gaps” argument.

Response: The gap is quite large, while the areas we claim to understand are comparatively small. Even classical physics relies on approximations. Our empirical instruments are limited, and the results they provide are never perfectly precise. Empirical knowledge is therefore provisional. Rationalism alone fares no better, because logic itself depends on conceptual frameworks that vary across different systems.

Consider the law of identity. It states that if x = a, then whatever happens to x happens to a. Yet two truly identical entities would effectively be indistinguishable. Equality itself is a relation, and relations presuppose plurality. If two things are truly the same in every respect, they cease to be two.

Similarly, other logical principles such as the law of excluded middle or certain inductive assumptions can also be examined critically based on their practical effectiveness rather than their absolute certainty.

Objection: Yet you still accept relations.

Response: Yes, but as diversity emerging from an underlying unity. Relations become possible precisely because of this deeper unity of consciousness. Without such unity, no relation between distinct elements could be established at all.

Objection: This still sounds like an argument from ignorance.

Response: not quite. I’m pointing out the flaws of the scientific method. I have made no resort to any claims science has not verified except perhaps the physical relevance of the quantum wave function collapse. But I guess scientists and us both agree, the physical relevance of the collapse , no matter whether it be understood as per the Copenhagen, Many worlds, Bohm Pilot wave models, is all inconsequential since the collapse matches experimental data. Science has verified it is inept in providing accurate results and it can never reach hundred percent accuracy, even in regards to problems most mundane since the moment a recurring decimal or such occurs, or complex numbers enter the game, results come crashing down to approximations, “closets to the truth and yet never the truth”. Even the representationalists argue using the same trick of being aware of external objects without these objects ever being objectively perceptible. On the other hand, what do you mean by an argument from ignorance? Science and scientists openly accept the very question of the physical relevance of quantum wave function collapse is incorrect do they not? “It is worthless to ask what an atom is doing when nobody is looking at it" says the same scientists. If science admits the illogical nature of the question itself, appealing to it and denying that it is inexplicable for now and Evermore cannot be said to be an argument from ignorance. Something inexplicable now may be explained later on but science or at least some scientists are of the opinion that this cannot be explained not now not ever, no matter how advanced we may become. As such an allegation of “argument from ignorance" is uncalled for. We merely demonstrate the possibility of acquisition of knowledge which was formerly deemed impossible to achieve at all.

2. Denial of the causal proof

For starters, a common objection states that if everything has a cause, then God must also have a cause. However, if this line of reasoning is accepted, it immediately leads to infinite regress. If infinite regress is treated as valid, numerous philosophical problems arise. For instance, if the universe were infinitely extended into the past, it would take an infinite amount of time to arrive at the present moment, which appears impossible.

People also tend to overlook that the statement “everything has a cause” would itself require a cause. What causes everything to “have a cause”? In other words, the argument becomes self-defeating. The first premise is therefore incorrect: not everything has a cause. This is precisely why classical philosophy distinguishes between material causality and efficient causality.

Matter itself is insentient. It cannot produce the dynamism we call “natural laws.” If matter possessed inherent dynamism within itself, it would not require energy in order to move. Moreover, while mass–energy equivalence has been demonstrated, this does not necessarily mean they are ontologically identical.

Cartesian dualism fails to properly explain causal interaction between mind and matter, but materialism faces its own serious difficulties. It struggles to explain how physical neurochemical processes give rise to qualitative experiences such as colour, texture, or aesthetic appreciation given that these qualities do not objectively exist “out there,” but correspond only to numerical values of wave frequencies or inert physical interactions that have no intrinsic “feel.”

The materialist who argues that the world is a causally closed system also overlooks something important: we do not possess a perfect understanding of this supposedly “closed” system. Scientifically speaking, there are few clear ontological definitions. Most definitions describe observable processes rather than what these things fundamentally are. For example, energy itself lacks a precise ontic definition and is often described simply in terms of what it does or how it is observed.

Opponent: Why must such a question even arise? Is an ontological definition really necessary?

Response: If we attempt to explain the behaviour of something without knowing what it fundamentally is, that seems problematic. Behaviour normally derives from the essential nature of a substance. For example, water flows because it is fluid.

Opponent: Let us avoid the ontological route then. The material world is a closed causal system. Nothing external is required to initiate causality within it. Epistemic arguments alone are sufficient for denying God’s existence.

Response: Any causal chain, when examined carefully, leads to infinite regress. When you say the system is closed, do you mean that the causal chains are circular?

Opponent: Some are circular, while others adopt an infinite model in which the universe is cyclical. In either case, an external God is unnecessary.

Response: Successive causal interactions taken linearly lead to infinite regress, whose difficulties have already been noted. If all objects are entirely interdependent, how can any objective empirical data arise? The circular model faces similar issues. If causal relations require infinite duration, it becomes impossible for any event to occur at all, which is a clear absurdity.

Objection: The universe is non-local. It cannot depend on a single mind. Idealism often collapses into solipsism, which is itself contradictory.

Response: We do not advocate solipsism. Even idealists such as Kant or Berkeley did not support such a position. Rather, we maintain a form of objective realism within consciousness. By “mind,” I specifically mean spirit, not the brain or a cluster of mnemonic impressions (memories), which are themselves experiential phenomena. We affirm one absolute subject, within which all limited subjects exist. In such a framework, solipsism does not arise.

If only a limited cognizer existed, and his mind alone constituted reality, then his limited knowledge would form an absolute boundary. For example, a blind person has no sensory understanding of visual information. If solipsism were true, genuinely new information could never arise. This conclusion appears counterintuitive.

Objection: Then what is the mechanical process by which mind creates reality?

Response: By the same token, explain how emergent properties arise from entities that seemingly possess no relation to those properties. There is no definitive explanation for that either.

Objection: But what about causality? Something nonexistent cannot suddenly become manifest.

Response: Yet manifestation itself presupposes that prior to manifestation the object was not manifest.

Objection: So you reject the principle that the effect pre-exists in the cause?

Response: Not exactly. Rather, we hold that all is consciousness and its freedom, containing within it infinite possibilities from the beginning. These possibilities are always present, though not always perceptible to our senses much like the sun is ever present, yet its brilliance can prevent us from seeing it clearly. When the appropriate conditions arise, these possibilities become perceptible.

We therefore do not adopt either the Humean theory of causation or the Naiyāyika model, since both face their own inconsistencies. Nor do we accept the Sāáčƒkhya Satkāryavāda theory in its strict form.

Objection: Then what causal principle do you advocate?

Response: I advocate a causal relation similar to that proposed in Kashmiri Úaivism or in Berkeleyan idealism a relation between the subject and its signified object. This relation is one of continuous, ever-present manifestation, much like the constant radiance of sunlight. Such manifestation does not require sequential temporal verification, and thus avoids the difficulties associated with antecedent and subsequent events that are usually invoked to explain causality.

Contd
.


Contd. from above

**
3. Over emphasis on emperical evidence is self refuting**

If God is proved by emperical Evidence, He is not God. This proposition is clear for the Subject can never be the object as such.

Demand for emperical Evidence for God is a plain contradiction. Since all observable phenomenon are considered ideas, mental ideations and creations of the Spirit, they themselves cannot be absolutely identical with the spirit epistemologically though essentially and ontologically only the Supreme Spirit exists. If God is proved by an emperical evidence, it is necessitated that God is of the same nature as of the evidence uses to prove Him. Nothing which is ontologically distinct can serve as emperical evidence for the other for something to serve as proof of something else, there must be a pervasion between them. If God alone is the basic reality of all, not part and parcel of this reality can serve as evidence for Him but rather He is the contingent cause for all phenomenon which serve as the basis of epistemic proof, including the very relations between entities which cause any epistemic inferences to be drawn. No evidence is direct. All evidences can provide a sound conclusion only through inferential deductions acting as mediators.

Objection: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence otherwise what can be claimed without evidence can also be rejected without evidence. The burden of proof lies on the one making the claim.

Response: let it be so but can you provide the evidence of the axiom that “ a point is zero dimensional"? Or why go that far? Answer as to what evidence you have to evidently prove the claim “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” for such an extraordinary claim which Includes the very criterion to accept valid extraordinary claims need another extraordinary evidence in support of it. Do you have such an evidence? And so on to infinity.
Your arguments are just like the fallacious kalam’s argument. Everything has a cause is demonstrated to be fallacious at its root. In fact such an argument favors the atheist, not the theist who wishes to establish an ultimate, non mutable, permanent reality which is uncaused.
Similarly, the doctrine of “ all claims require evidence” is favorable to the sceptic which is one step further from the atheists.

But after all, in the words of Edward Farley-

“The anomaly of absolute skepticism about truth, knowledge or reality apprehension is that it must appropriate what it rejects to make it’s case- namely the sphere of the interhuman. There is a common element in various attempts to deny or eliminate truth as a feature of the human transaction with things. This is the initial restrictive placing of truth in a prereality individual whose capacities for truth must then be demonstrated. The enterprise then is to indicate a number of causalities (cultural relativities, brain physiology, genetic predisposition) whose interventions hold reality and truth in abeyance. It is obvious to the point of banality that reality positing must occur to make the case of such interventions”

**
~ Truth and the Wisdom of Enduring (in Phenomenology of the Truth Proper to Religion)**

Such relativism and Skepticism is like hitting your own feet with an axe. Such epistemic means are self refuting at best. All epistemic considerations require prior ontological and axiomatic considerations and preconceived a priori concepts, in the absence of which any epistemic model simply falls apart like a house of cards.
The argument and excessive demand for evidence for every claim is not different from the Kalam’s argument. Evidence strictly depends on cause effect relationship otherwise what would serve as evidence? Evidence surely exists and possesses it’s value due to the inferential pervasion of the cause which precedes it. The Buddhist doctrine of impermanence is another doctrine of the same species for to make everything impermanent, it is only natural to make everything interdependent ( pratiyutpanna aka dependent origination ).
Furthermore, if time is infinite and sequential, it surely leads to a regress. Then for the epistemic validity for one set of observations we need another set of observations and so on to infinite and it takes an infinite time for an effect to arise through which we shall infer and evidently prove through emperical data the cause, and establish it as a theory like the Big Bang. But before the very creation of sequential time itself, how does any of this hold? Neither infinite regress nor the inexplicable conundrums borne of the lack of sequential time are desired results on the atheist’s part.
The Buddhist, the Kalam’s causal, and the Atheist evidential arguments all stem from the same root, an over simplified Skeptical reductionist application of a single principle to all entities.

4.An Objection and It’s Refutation

Objection: if a single principle is universally inapplicable then ultimately no principle is universally applicable. Therefore a One Absolute God, which forms the axiomatic base of all arguments and a priori notions and criterions forged out of them to systematically analyse epistemic information, is simply impossible

Response: as usual, the very principle we refuted before raises it’s head again.
If the principle “ a single principle is universally inapplicable” is itself universal, then it refutes itself and if not then too, it remains itself universally inapplicable and hence either this inapplicable-ness is taken continuously leading to a regress, or cannot be applicable universally. In all three cases it is self refuting. We never claimed any such generalization so misrepresenting our postion would do no good.


.contd further

  1. Argument from an Appeal to Authority

Atheists often criticize theists for accepting God’s existence through scriptures and verbal testimony (ƛabda pramāáč‡a). However, we should consider the practical impossibility of establishing any statement as true without relying, at some level, on a preconceived authority.

Consider the statement: “Appeal to authority is a fallacy.”

This statement itself functions as an authoritative claim and is accepted as such. Therefore either it contradicts itself or it undermines its own validity. In either case it becomes self-refuting.

Here I am primarily addressing those who argue that all forms of appeal to authority are fallacious, not those who accept that appeals to authority can be valid under certain circumstances.

The idea that scriptures ultimately reflect the inner speech of the primordial sound (parāvācha in Tantra), and that the arrangement of letters (ƛabdarāƛi) is based on a priori intuition (pratibhā) or pre-conceived knowledge (prasiddhi), has been discussed in detail in Isabelle Ratié’s article Reason and Scripture. This intuitive framework, although modified through interaction with acquired knowledge, still functions as the blueprint through which we analyze and comprehend new knowledge.

From this perspective the hierarchical validity of scriptures can be understood. Different scriptures, whether Abrahamic, Buddhist, or otherwise, possess validity within their own spheres of scope. Therefore the objection “why only your scripture is true?” does not arise in the same way.

How far this idea corresponds to the concept of the Logos in Christian theology is an interesting question, but it lies outside the scope of the present discussion.

Objection: Does this not create a problem for your position? Errors in inferior texts would undermine your thesis.

Response: Not necessarily. The defects in inferior texts arise from the limited comprehension of those who interpret them. There is no obligation to defend every such defect. In our view everything is ƚiva, even a stone or a rock, yet their apparent inertness is simply a failure to apprehend their true nature as pure self-awareness. In a similar sense, the limitations in inferior texts can be understood as the Lord’s own power appearing in contracted form, manifesting limited knowledge as part of His play. These limitations are therefore not contradictions but expressions of restricted understanding.

In other words, we are not required to defend every argument found in the Pāñcarātra texts, the Buddhist and Jain Āgamas or Tripiáč­akas, or the Biblical and Qur’ānic traditions. Rather, without denying their validity, we show that many of their arguments are correct within a limited framework but remain incomplete. What I mean by “deficient” or “incomplete,” rather than “wrong,” will become clearer in the following sections.

Objection: What about cases where scripture appears to conflict with observed phenomena?

Response: Manifested phenomena are diverse. A priori knowledge provides a framework for understanding them but does not itself constitute detailed knowledge of each manifested event. Since the Lord’s manifestation is infinite, scripture does not necessarily aim to provide meticulous descriptions of every phenomenon.

Without such a priori knowledge, however, knowledge of manifested objects would itself be impossible. The very framework through which we verify and interpret empirical phenomena would be absent.

In other words, scriptures are not primarily concerned with objects known through perception (pratyakáčŁa). Their purpose is not even to address entities that can merely be inferred (aparokáčŁa). They deal primarily with metaphysics, the efficacy of rituals, realities beyond other epistemic methods, and above all the nature of the Supreme reality.

Objection: By this logic, a DC comic would prove the existence of Spider-Man. How do we determine which authority is valid if scriptures themselves contain subjective perceptions?

Response: In a certain sense it does. If Spider-Man did not exist in any sense, how could we speak about him at all? As will be argued in the next section, the notion of absolute non-existence is logically problematic. Everything has some form of validity within its own sphere of applicability. Even a fictional character can become a point of reflection leading toward divine truth.

However, this conflicts with our psychological conditioning rather than ontology. Humans tend to classify things as religious or non-religious based largely on cultural habits. Otherwise we would not see groups such as Jedi worshippers, who follow a set of beliefs and practices similar to those of other religions.

Objection: Spider-Man only exists as a fictional character. He is not real.

Response: This brings us to the next proposition.

  1. Non-Existence is an Absurdity

Non-existence, by definition, cannot itself exist. Therefore no valid statement can truly refer to absolute non-existence. Even to deny something, that absence must in some sense be recognized. What we perceive is not non-existence itself but the absence of something in a given context.

Absence is therefore a kind of existent entity, though a negative one. This idea is somewhat similar to Descartes’ dubito ergo sum.

For this reason it becomes impossible to establish the absolute non-existence of anything. What one can deny is merely the presence of something in a particular domain.

For example, one may deny the presence of Spider-Man in the physical world. By “physical” I mean the mind-dependent reality that arises through the Lord’s will, not merely our individual imagination, which lacks stability and coherence. Yet even imagination reflects the freedom of consciousness and can serve as a path toward understanding the Lord’s infinite freedom and the manifestation of possibilities across the multiverse.

The difference between imagination and perception is therefore one of degree rather than kind.

Even an erroneous perception, such as imagining the moon made of cheese, does not negate the existence of either cheese or the moon, nor even the perception itself. The perception occurs, but it mistakenly attributes a quality that is not present in the object. Thus the earlier perception is not completely false but incomplete, superimposing absent qualities upon the object.

In this sense even fictional characters such as Spider-Man possess a form of existence. If one objects that individual cognitions may be invalid and uses that as an argument against scripture, then one is implicitly questioning the very a priori framework that makes knowledge possible. Without the ever-present reality of the Lord, we would lack the very basis for distinguishing real properties from superimposed ones. Our intuitive cognitive structure would collapse, leaving us unable to organize the random data of experience into meaningful knowledge.

If someone still prefers to follow what might be called a “napkin religion,” that is their choice. We already have traditions of sun worshippers, water worshippers, and even Jedi worshippers, so napkin worshippers would not be entirely surprising.

Humor aside, the point is that while one could theoretically worship any object or cognition, such worship tends to be psychologically limited. Religious symbols such as idols or sacred stones developed over centuries precisely because they resonate with human religious sensibilities and provide a more effective means of directing devotion toward the divine.

Objection: Why worship deities like Úiva or Zeus, whose myths sometimes portray morally questionable actions? Would it not be better to worship something morally neutral, like a napkin?

Response: This line of reasoning confuses the issue. One might as well blame the knife instead of the murderer. Insentient objects, which cannot manifest knowledge and action in the way conscious beings do, cannot bear moral responsibility.

In fact, the idea of assigning moral responsibility to individual souls, as some dualistic traditions do, raises its own philosophical problems. For example, if God is perfect, why create an imperfect world? This question is often raised against Christian theology.

Similarly, in certain dualistic VaiáčŁáč‡ava or Úaiva Siddhānta systems, the idea that God must rely on a separate material principle (pradhāna) to create the universe seems problematic. Instruments are required only when limitations exist. If God requires instruments external to Himself, this implies limitation.

In some dualistic views God simply dispenses the results of karma like an impartial machine. If He favors devotees, that suggests partiality; if He remains completely impartial, then His role appears mechanical. Similar criticisms were raised by George Berkeley in the Second Dialogue between Hylas and Philonous when discussing causation.

From my perspective, moral responsibility ultimately rests with the divine itself. Since I deny the ontological existence of evil (though not its epistemic appearance), many such objections lose their force. The reasons for this position will be discussed elsewhere, particularly when addressing questions in ethics, meta-ethics, and normative ethics, since a full treatment would extend this discussion far beyond its current scope.

Response: If that is the case, how do we perceive a dragon?

Objection: We do not actually perceive dragons.

Response: Then how do we speak about them?

Opponent: Because we imagine them.

Response: If we imagine them, does imagination somehow escape perception? If so, how do we perceive imagination, hallucinations, or dreams?

Opponent: What you experience is simply the result of neural activity in your brain. These things exist only in your head.

The heads of the inhabitants of Hiroshima and Nagasaki ceased to exist before they knew it.

Therefore, reality is not dependent on what we think or believe about it.

The reverse is true.

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I have just demonstrated, with evidence, that reality does not arise from our imaginations.

On that we agree.

But since you claim that reality arises from the Lord’s will, the onus is upon you to make good on that claim, also with evidence.

You’ll note that I was able to demonstrate my point succinctly, with just an image and a few lines of text.

Hopefully you can demonstrate the existence of this ‘Lord’ in just as brief and succinct way?

Without reams and reams of wordy philosophization?

Thank you,

Walter.

You ask for evidence for the Lord and say that if reality is said to arise from His will, the burden of proof is on the philosopher who claims this. From the standpoint of our Pratyabhijñā school, the request misunderstands the kind of claim being made. Úiva is not proposed as a hidden object somewhere in the universe that could be detected the way one detects a planet or a particle. The claim is about the nature of consciousness itself. The argument is therefore not empirical but transcendental

The one fact that cannot be denied is that consciousness exists. Even the act of denying it presupposes it. Whenever something is known, there is an awareness in which that knowledge appears. This awareness has a special feature: it reveals objects and it also reveals itself. When you perceive something, you do not only encounter an object; you are simultaneously aware that you are aware of it. Consciousness therefore has reflexivity or self-awareness. Utpaladeva, the founder of the Pratyabhijñā system, argues that this property cannot belong to inert matter, because matter can be observed but it does not illuminate itself. Consciousness, by contrast, is intrinsically self-revealing. His short treatise Ajaឍa-pramātáč›-siddhi is devoted to showing that a real sentient knower must exist and cannot be reduced to unconscious processes. Modern scholarship describes this as a transcendental argument for a universal knower.

Now consider memory and recognition. You remember things you experienced earlier and recognize them as your own past experiences. That simple fact already presupposes a continuing subject of awareness. If experience were only a series of disconnected physical events in the brain, there would be no single knower capable of recognizing past experiences as “mine.” This shows that cognition requires a real conscious subject that is not reducible to inert matter.

Once we acknowledge that consciousness is self-revealing and that a stable subject of awareness exists, another question arises. Is consciousness merely a passive witness of an independent material world, or does it possess intrinsic power? The Pratyabhijñā philosophers argue that consciousness must have an inherent capacity for manifestation. Every experienced object appears only within awareness and is inseparable from it as an experienced phenomenon. The tradition therefore attributes creative freedom (svātantrya) to consciousness: the capacity to manifest forms within itself.

At that point the conclusion follows. If consciousness is self-revealing, enduring, and capable of manifesting the field of experience, then it cannot be merely a local by-product of matter. It must be a fundamental reality underlying all experience.Pratyabhijñā school identifies this universal conscious subject with Úiva. The individual mind is simply a contracted expression of that universal awareness.

We affirm our Lord as one absolute subject, within which all limited subjects exist.

As demonstrated before Demanding empirical evidence for God is ultimately self-contradictory.

If all observable phenomena are understood as manifestations, ideas, or mental constructions within the domain of Spirit, then these phenomena cannot be epistemologically identical with Spirit itself, even if, at the ontological level, only the Supreme Spirit truly exists. Empirical objects belong to the realm of appearances and cognition, not to the ultimate ground of being.

To prove God through empirical evidence would require God to be of the same epistemic nature as the evidence used to establish Him. Yet something that is ontologically distinct cannot serve as empirical proof for another unless there is a relation of pervasion or necessary connection between them. Empirical data can only demonstrate entities that share the same order of reality.

If God alone is the fundamental reality underlying all existence, then no fragment of empirical reality can function as independent evidence for Him. Rather, God is the very ground and contingent cause of all phenomena that later become objects of knowledge. Even the logical relations and patterns that allow us to draw inferences are themselves grounded in that ultimate reality.

Furthermore, no evidence is strictly direct. All evidence leads to conclusions only through inferential mediation. What we call empirical proof is therefore always an interpretive process, dependent on prior metaphysical assumptions.

Consequently, the demand that God be established by empirical evidence misunderstands both the nature of empirical knowledge and the metaphysical status of the ultimate reality it seeks to prove.

No. This is false. I have just demonstrated it to be so.

The people of Hiroshima were not able to employ any inferential mediation or interpretive processes based upon their metaphysical assumptions. They did not have the luxury of sufficient time to do this. Their bodies ceased to exist before they could even register what was happening to them.

The empirical proof of their instant destruction could only be perceived by others. Not themselves. So your use of the word ‘always’ is wrong. Please concede this point.

Therefore, I am quite within my rights to ask you for evidence of this ‘Lord’.

Please do so - as briefly and succinctly as possible please.

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OK, any objectively verifiable evidence?

Atheism is just a lack of belief in any deity or deities, it’s not a claim, and doesn’t make any?

Atheism is a lack of belief in any deity or deities, nothing else, what an atheist does or does not accept is irrelevant, theism is a claim, just open with the best reason you have to support that claim, odd how theists tap dance around this every single time.

That’s a lie, and a straw man, and a false equivalence. All beliefs involve subjective bias, they do not all involve the same amount of subjective bias, this a tired old lie theists trot out all the time.

Nonsense, the difference lies in whether the claim / belief can be supported by any objective or objectively verifiable evidence, you’re racing on with your rhetoric and so far have offered none. As I said, why wouldn’t you open with the best you have, the answer is hard to ignore.

We can imagine unicorns and mermaids, just how deep do you want to dig this idiotic false equivalence?

Yawn, the same tired false equivalence, it is an objective fact that the world is not flat, and that all living things have evolved slowly over time, we can imagine a Griffin, are you really going to make an assertion so stupid as to compare those?

I’m done with this endless false equivalences, what is the best evidence you think you have that an deity exists, I can’t give you any more latitude than that, fill your boots.

Sigh, circular reasoning fallacy, and you’re begging the question, this is very poor stuff.

Straw man, present the best you have, if it falls short of empirical evidence that’s your problem, you simply want to believe something, and so you’re setting a biased standard, this is the very definition of a closed mind.

Cool, I think Superman is the real moral authority, and since you have ruled out anyone demanding empirical or objective evidence, you can’t object. Dear oh dear


Yeah, we get that a lot from people peddling unevidenced archaic superstitions, quelle surprise.

Then this unevidenced concept of a deity can’t be moral in any way that humans understand, as morality necessitates choice, and some level of autonomy.

elements of the empty set; what do I win?

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If someone is shot in the head with a firearm, they die. No amount of appeals to "subjectivity"or “qualia”, or any other attempt to hand- wave away reality with assertionist wibble, alters this unpleasant fact. A fact that tragically impacts thousands of Americans every year, as a direct result of the toxic gun fetish that has infected their society.

The whole of your house of cards of verbosity collapses, both in the face of Walter’s succinct account of the Nagasaki atomic bombing, and the example I have just provided above.

Plus, your whole raving against scientific measurement, is destroyed by another simple fact. Namely, that scientists developed instruments to record data, precisely for the purpose of removing subjectivity from measurement as much as possible.

For example, the metre is defined in terms of an exact number of wavelengths of a precisely defined part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Photons don’t have “subjective experiences”, they simply interact in accordance with the laws of physics. Furthermore, when experiments are precisely and reliably repeatable, yielding the same results on each occasion, regardless of which scientists conduct the experiments, we’re not dealing with “subjectivity” BY DEFINITION.

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You brought your claim to us, that you attempt to offer something beyond bare claims piled end to end and peppered with fallacious arguments, is a given otherwise why come here?

Begging the question fallacy.

Word salad, an appeal to authority fallacy, and yet another bare claim.

Straw man after straw man, and not a shred of evidence for any deity. Not knowing something is not evidence for anything, this is an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

In every example we have human consciousness exists only in the presence of a functioning human brain, it is impaired when the brain is impaired, it disappears when the brain dies, we have not one single objectively verifiable example of it existing without a functioning human brain, all you have produced is word salad that is at odds with a massive amount of objective evidence that supports human consciousness as an emergent property of a functioning human brain.

Yeah, you will need to evidence that.

Begging the question, to create circular reasoning.

If Superman alone is the fundamental reality underlying all existence, then no fragment of empirical reality can function as independent evidence for Him.

Hmm, it looses nothing when I replace the word god with Superman, or mermaid or dragon, or unicorn, or anything we can imagine really, that means the argument is fairly dubious.

Is the claim the world is not flat, less more or equally reliable to the claim someone saw a mermaid?

This is the same tired old nonsense theists use, to laughably try and justify the idea that unevidenced superstition somehow has parity with objective facts, I am pointing, and I am laughing.

Oh look, invisible mermaids are real, unless you want to use subjective bias to deny this? At this point I’d respect that bias more than this nonsense we have seen peddled relentlessly by apologists.

You speak of misunderstanding?

Yet you yourself misunderstand the very nature of empirical evidence.

Empirical evidence CANNOT be proven.

Proofs only exist in logic and in mathematics.

If you want stop misunderstanding how empirical evidence works then you could use AI.

Like this example from Google in AI Mode.

Q. Do proofs exist outside of mathematics and logic?

A.

“Proof” in the strictest, absolute sense (100% certainty) generally exists only within mathematics and logic

. Outside these fields, “proofs” are usually robust evidence or valid arguments, such as in law (“beyond a reasonable doubt”), computer science (formal verification), or physics (experimental proof of a theory’s predictions), which are not absolute.

Here is a breakdown of proof outside pure mathematics:

  • Computer Science (Formal Methods): This is the strongest application outside pure math, where rigorous mathematical logic is used to prove that software or hardware systems work as intended, such as the seL4 microkernel verification.

  • Law: Legal proof is about proving a case “beyond a reasonable doubt” or by “preponderance of the evidence.” It is an argument based on evidence within a structured system (the law), but it is not a deductive, logical certainty like a math theorem.

  • Science: Science rarely “proves” in the absolute sense (it uses induction, not deduction). However, it can definitively prove the negative—for instance, showing a specific hypothesis is false. It provides strong evidence for theories, not absolute certainty.

  • Economics/Theoretical Models: Similar to math, economics uses formal proofs within axiomatic models (e.g., Nash equilibrium). However, these proofs are only valid within that model, not necessarily in the real, complex world.

    In summary, formal deductive proofs are restricted to mathematics and logic, while other disciplines rely on inductive reasoning, evidence, and verification that offer high probability, rather than absolute certainty.

Thank you,

Walter.

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@Virasaiva

Objecting to people not sharing a belief, when you can’t evidence that belief with anything more than subjective claims, fallacious arguments, and wishful thinking, is simply risible.

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How do you determine that your subjective experience does in fact correspond to reality? How do you determine which of these are real?

  • X is real
  • you hallucinated X (i.e. X is not real)
  • were tricked into believing X (i.e. X is not real)
  • you believe X because of a misunderstanding (i.e. X is not real)
  • you are just plainly wrong (i.e. X is not real)

And last but not least: How do you determine what is, in fact, real/reality?

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The appeal to authority fallacy is not in the appeal to an authority itself, but in appealing to an authority that lacks the relevant expertise. This might take the form of, for example, citing someone’s views about the theory of evolution who is not a paleontologist or in some other field related to the specific question, or who is not even a scientist (a specific example I’ve seen a lot of). But it can also take the form of asserting an expertise that the person you are arguing with does not acknowledge as valid, such as a person claiming expertise they don’t actually possess as they can’t point to published peer-reviewed research or sometimes even to a valid degree in the subject area. Or a person saying a thing is not true because it disagrees with religious assertions that are not only un-evidenced, but un-evidenceable.

I would regard theology as a faux discipline (except when and where it is used in a serious, scholarly, non-sectarian and factual study of comparative religion) that basically involves asserting a set of unfalsifiable claims and principles about invisible beings and realms, so citing a theologian to argue for the existence of a god would be an appeal to authority fallacy as well, perhaps combined at times with an argument from popularity if the religion has enough adherents who respect or agree with the authority (“x number of people can’t be wrong / there must be something to it”).

Much of your writing seems to fall into this category. You clearly have a particular set of beliefs, and a good command of that material, but you must first demonstrate that this set of beliefs has any particular standing over any number of others. How would one determine that it is authoritative and accurate in any way?

As an atheist I don’t have that burden of proof since I don’t make any authoritative or positive truth claims; I simply see no good reason to believe in any deity I’ve ever heard of. That is literally all. My ethics, values, politics, philosophical convictions are really independent of that; I tend to go with “what works” and with what is consistent with empathy. As a human being, I have found religious exertions to get in the way of understanding reality rather than being a help. And by “understanding reality” I mean explaining my lived experience, predicting outcomes of this or that action --that sort of thing. Personally, I have found no substitute for just observing and accepting things as they are, and then seeing if I have minimal to no surprises or cognitive dissonance when following those observations. If I do, then maybe I have to question some of my conclusions. But oddly, I have had far better experiences in life by applying logic and reason based on observation as opposed to religious ideations.

My assessment of religion is basically that it all suffers from a fundamental epistemological problem – the failed epistemology of religious faith, where one uncritically accepts some dogma or other without requiring it to be evidenced.

My final thought is that your writing immediately asks the reader to question all their foundational assumptions without justifying that they abandon a lifetime of experience and observation. It’s similar to how I would react if someone told me, is an uncloudy, unpolluted sky on a sunny day at mid-day really blue in color? Isn’t it really quite a deep red with purpose polka-dots? I mean – well, no actually. I might feel special and clued-in to believe that the sky is not blue, and to master whatever esoteric texts make that claim, but there’s really no reason for me to do something like that – so i wouldn’t [shrug].

Oh dear!

A re-read through of his lengthy tract has revealed where he’s contradicted himself.

Above he says that empirical knowledge is provisional.

Yet he also wrote


Consequently, the demand that God be established by empirical evidence misunderstands both the nature of empirical knowledge and the metaphysical status of the ultimate reality it seeks to prove.

If empirical knowledge is provisional then how can it be proven?

:roll_eyes:

Doesn’t it often seem to be this way, Mordant?

Where religionists of any stripe try to rewrite the rules of what qualifies as evidence?

So as to validate their subjective feelings and make them seem real?

:roll_eyes:

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BOOM!! My brain just exploded over all this! Do you know that modern Zen does not believe in deities and seeks no solace in any kind of afterlife? It absolutely faces the transcient nature of everything in the universe. There’s nothing to hold on to, so man, LET GO! If you want to imagine anything, listen to John Lennon’s Imagine! Take a stress pill, “turn off your mind, relax and float down stream!” The guru is a groove in the ashram!!

Another drive by proselytising. No chew toy this time.

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