Redux: A religion of peace

I’ve heard umteen times that Islam is a religion of peace. Is it really?

Right now, there is a huge disparity shown in death statistics from the Afghanistan earthquake based on a victim’s sex. Women are disproportionately dying because, religion.

I consider war/peace to have a far broader scope than is often portrayed. Denying the rescue of a woman trapped in the earthquake rubble based on a religious rule that a man (no female rescuers are permitted) cannot touch a woman is NOT a peaceful choice. It is murder by inaction. Women who are injured but ambulatory are unable to obtain medical attention as well.

I suspect that non-fundamentalist Muslims would say the Afghan Taliban are not true Scotsmen, oops, I mean Muslims. They can say that all they want, but it does not change the fact that this behavior is being perpetrated IN THE NAME OF ISLAM.

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I think that most religions are like this in one way or another, and Islam shouldn’t be singled out.

Us Americans are destroying the environment through the way we consume because our interpretation of Christianity denies global climate change, and uncounted thousands of people in the Third World are suffering starvation and disease from our inaction . . . so I don’t see us as being all that different.

In Gaza, Israel is committing genocidal crimes against the Palestinians, and they feel entitled to do this because they are “protecting” Judaism, which bothers me deeply, as I am a Jew . . . as it seems that my people have forgotten the horrors of the ghettos and concentration camps of WWII.

And so on.

Organized religion (with some exceptions) really, really sucks.

Do you think that by calling out Islam I’m saying other religions are off the hook?
WADR, @Kevin_Levites, this reminds me of the, “All lives matter” buttshit.
A statement made about a particular thing is in no way a comment about other things.

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They are doing exactly what an abused child does when it grows up – abuse its own children. The unresolved wounds of the holocaust are producing a new holocaust, basically. And it’s not a new thing under the sun, really, just more overt. I’d argue that Zionism, despite being a spectrum of stridency, has always been a cynical power play to take the land based on a belief that the Torah is a land deed of some sort, and all other occupants are squatters at best.

More moderate factions of Israeli society allowed for Arab citizenship in ways similar to how more moderate factions of US society allowed for full citizenship for people of color, especially since Johnson’s Great Society. But it has always been somewhat theoretical and provisional and now the conservative elements in both countries are showing what they REALLY think of the Hated Other.

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I would say it’s a complex subject.

How does one judge a concept like a religion? Do you judge the people who express their association with the label? Anyone can take on a label and be viewed as a representative of that label - sure, you can have organisations like the Catholic Church ex-communicating people, but that’s only within the organisation… it’s no different to someone declaring someone else a sinner. A label (sinner, excommunicated) only has value if one accepts it.

Even when labels like “Jewish” are conditional based on genetic heritage, it doesn’t stop someone claiming that label even if they don’t qualify.

Anyone claiming that a label has been mis-applied by a person is just presenting a difference of opinion - it becomes a “no true Scotsman” claim if applied generally, or a “he said, she said” if applied individually.

If you instead say, “how about we focus on the written text(s) that define(s) the religion?”, you then have the problem of interpretation. The extremists can interpret a text in a manner that suits their extremist views, does that then mean that the most extreme interpretation counts?

One might argue that if a scripture can be interpreted in an extreme way, then it can’t qualify as peaceful; but then one could point out that flat-earthers interpret empirical data as either proving a flat earth or failing to prove a spherical earth, but it would be illogical to accept that extreme interpretation as valid, so logically, judgement based on possible interpretations is not a fair measure either.

I would go down the legal example personally - consider that in the majority of various legal systems around the world, there is no objective measure of guilt or innocence associated with specific crimes - there is a judge and often a jury, a defence and prosecution, and each case is heard on its own merit.

A judgement of whether a religion is peaceful or not needs to take into consideration the scripture(s) / written text(s) of that religion, the various interpretations and whether those interpretations are reasonable; the behaviour of the majority of adherents in comparison to an equivalent control group, and whether the “fringe” elements (extremism) are at a higher or lower ratio compared to an equivalent control group.

At present, a comparison with a “non-religious” control group would be difficult because there is a significant disparity in numbers - most of the world’s population is religious, so comparing a smaller number of non-religious to a much larger number of religious could produce lower quality results.

You also have the issue of cultural disparity - if the non-religious group has greater numbers in a particular region (i.e., the west) and clustered around certain demographics (education, etc.), it’s not a fair control group.

That said, in addressing the specific question:

The term “Islam is a religion of peace” is a post 9/11 slogan, and not something doctrinally stated, though proponents of Islam do make the case that key verses in the Quran establish this position (but not directly stated as such)

One notable feature of religious texts is that they provide historic accounts - i.e., in the Quran, there are a number of battles/wars referenced and directions/instructions given to the persons fighting in these conflicts.

I would say that if a verse cites an instruction/direction given, that in that context as a historical account, and even though limited to that specific event, the instruction/direction can reasonably be taken at its face value, even if its application as a verse to future instances is subject to interpretation and the wider conflict.

To put that in a clearer way, If a verse detailing a conflict has an order given, “Do X”, then “X” should be taken on face value for the purposes of that conflict, even if it is open to interpretation for a future follower.

In the Quran, there is at least one verse (the “sword verse”) that features an instruction given in conflict for forced conversion:

“9:5 But once the Sacred Months have passed, kill the polytheists ˹who violated their treaties˺ wherever you find them, capture them, besiege them, and lie in wait for them on every way. But if they repent, perform prayers, and pay alms-tax, then set them free. Indeed, Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

I would say that even though it is in the context of a specific context, forced conversion runs antithetical to a religion of peace.

While not as authoritative as the Quran, the Hadiths contain more damning verses like:

Sahih Bukhari 6924 “Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.”

and

Sahih Muslim 22, Book 1 Hadith 36 “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.”

Some argue that the 6924 verse only applies to people who have committed treason, however the problem with that argument is that it becomes circular - the act of changing from the Islamic religion in that time was considered and treated as treason, so the argument that it was only for people guilty of treason is misrepresentative.

On this basis, I would say that however it may be argued Islam is viewed today; in the time of its conception and during the timeline the writings cover, there are evidently actions - instructions and commands - described that are contrary to it being a religion of peace at that time.

Are you familiar with the concept of brevity?

yes. (I would have just left it at that but needed at least 20 characters)

I think that’s as fair a characterization of Islam as a non-Muslim can make.

A more economical way to look at it is that in Islam, the ratio of fundamentalist extremism leading to authoritarian forms of governance, from what I’ve read, is about double that in Christianity, although subjectively, it feels like a bigger gap than that.

Nevertheless fundamentalist / extremist Christianity has for example had a huge role in bequeathing to us in the US, our current political situation. So to me it’s a case of, to borrow a Biblical aphorism, “a little leaven leavens the whole lump”. Religious extremists are dangerous, controlling, selfish, morally bereft people who cause outsized amounts of harm in society, regardless of the holy book or dogma.

I agree with you, and I never intended to touch a nerve.

I sometimes don’t communicate well.

For certain values of peace, maybe? I mean, if we all became Islamic there would be peace, right? Er… probably not.

Ah well… no peace for the wicked (by which I mean all of us who aren’t), eh?

UK Atheist

p.s. Not that I consider Christianity any better!

the successful religions serve the status quo, and that is rarely peaceful.

Nope. They demonstrated that on 9/11 in New York. Then the US spent years fighting the Taliban, who is made up of a lot of pissed off farmers over in Afghanistan looking for an excuse to kill someone. Then when Biden withdrew the military, they took over in 2 seconds.

No one group reduces to a stereotype. People in other countries could be forgiven for assuming that ALL Americans have lost their senses and become MAGA or something, but actually most of us haven’t. It’s far more nuanced than that.

The same is true of Muslims, even though they are radicalized (fundamentalist) at about twice the rate of Christians, give or take.

At the end of the day, NONE of the Abrahamic religions can be said to be “religions of peace” overall but there are adherents to each of them that cherry pick in such as way as to be quite moral and selfless people in spite of the religion, which I would argue is inherently confrontational, just by virtue of monotheism. Any monotheism MUST definitionally be the one and only True Faith. As such it must condemn other pretenders to that title, and ultimately, must fight them, sometimes literally.

As an addendum to my op, I asked if Islam was a religion of peace, not if Muslims were peaceful.

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Muslims don learn the golden rule. Moderate muslims stumble onto the fact, by human empathy or logic. Islam is a vile violent religion devoid of any redeeming qualities after al Ghazali got his hands on it.

The golden rule or slight rephrasings of what we call the Golden Rule predates Christianity, much less Islam. It has been there since time immemorial for anyone to “stumble onto”. Many Christians fail to do so. It is nothing more than the principle of basic human empathy, the wellspring of morality.

What you’re saying about Islam, aside from being a gross generalization, could just as well be said about, say, oligarchs or fascists or any number of ideologies.

The only thing I’m willing to say about Islam relative to Christianity is that from what I have read it has about twice the percentage of fundamentalist adherents as Christianity. And that seems to have to do with the higher percentage of Muslims who live in abject poverty. Those are the people who are easily radicalized because they’re desperate, and usually, on the whole, uneducated.

Indeed, it is the Christians in America who inhabit the most economically disadvantaged regions who are fundamentalists, and in fact in the US we have about twice as many of them as on a worldwide basis (as a rough proxy, worldwide, 17% of Christians are evangelicals, but around twice that in the US). That has made us ripe for the current, largely Christo-fascist takeover we’re experiencing.

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After al Ghazali, Islam lost that drive to philosophical and scientific enquiry. Muslims are poor because of this. The Islamic world has plenty of money, from the oil so conveniently found under their lands, but wealth is concentrated among the few chosen by god.

I don’t buy that poverty radicalises the poor. The hijackers were highly educated engineers whom were well off. And Islam rejects education, putting all truths and ways of living in one book. Muslims don’t reject education if they are moderate, but then again, they do not follow their book.

Raeliszm is a religion of peace.