Hello. So, i was debating come shitty conspiracy on youtube when someone hit me with (i showed insert forn large comment, I will post other parts later) this. So, “The Seal of God” was written by Ivan Pannan, Russian mathemathican who was atheist(not anymore). He tried to prove bible wrong. But as he started reading he found hidden mathemathical code (keep in mind he was mathmathican) in 66 books. He became beliver. So, what are your thoughts? Just remember he is mathmathican and you aren’t
Ahhhh - is this like when the Bible was only available to the church itself and spoken of in
Latin to keep the “regular” folks in awe and humble and subservient to “god’s word”?
Hahahahaha… if his math is as “good” as his reading skills, I’d say he sucks!!! All you need to do is read the fucking book. Genesis is a good place to start…once you do this BLAM - you are no longer convinced “god” had anything to do with it!!!
Do they mean Ivan Panin? Not good when they can’t even get the name right.
In the couple of minutes I read about him, I didn’t see anything claiming he had a degree in math. Not that it matters much; their are plenty of mathematicians who are off their rocker (it happens in every field).
I’m guessing that anyone who read that Wikipedia page I linked above; probably now knows more about Mr. Panin than the author of the text in that screenshot.
Nyar - I clicked …
Well… there you go!!! “Proof” of a god who wants his creation to know and love him and clearly communicates with them - sooo you either have to buy the bullshit of talking animals, earth’s 6 day creation, global flood, hundreds of years of life, genocide and immoral divine guidance, “miracles” to know god. OR you have to be obsessed with “maths” - spending your whole life retranslating the buybull nonsense into a more complicated
I’ve checked every major global news network, even Al Jazeera and the Catholic Herald, and they all seem unaware of this.
I have to say I’m highly dubious.
Perhaps if you give some specific examples of the claims being made and how you think they evidence this bronze age superstition?
My best guess is you’ve quote mined this, and it’s yet another attempt at a drive by prostlytising.
Why isn’t every mathematician in the world celebrating this claim if it’s true? Not even the religious ones seem to have noticed ffs.
Can code beta understand these maths??? I highly doubt I’d be able to, so who gives a fuck?
AND when an error in the maths is exposed - is this god’s mistake or the one interpreting the maths?
Don’t see where any of this gets you…
Personal experience is incredibly good at convincing a single person, but does little to improve our collective understanding of any particular topic. In this case for example by appealing to authority the comment has avoided any direct discussion of the evidence, instead basing an argument off the personal experience of a third party. Such an argument is certainly not a proof.
The first step in this argument is whether the bible is valid. Only when it is established that the bible is valid can we progress in discussing the contents of said book.
So what? It is just a ratio and nothing supernatural.
It is of course as you say the very definition of an appeal to authority fallacy. I particularly like the line trying to ring fence that mathematician’s alleged expertise from criticism, made me smile anyway.
It’s reasonable to ask why the scientific or at least the mathematical world doesn’t even seem to be aware of this claim.
Most of the posters here have seen enough dishonest religious apologetics not to be taken in but this nonsense.
Is this a rehash of the Bible Code with hidden messages and references using a mathematical formula or something?
This was big some years ago. Participating theists claimed the code revealed a whole lot of people and events of the 20th Century actually spelling out names and words like ‘Adolf Hitler’, ‘Germany’ and ‘war’ from a single page, in the Bible. But it was found you could get the same results if you applied the same coding to any page in “Moby Dick” or “Gone With the Wind” that could turn up names and places from any time in history, “Titanic”, “iceberg”, “room for Jack on the piece of furniture”(no not really, just added that), but you get the idea. It seems it was a probability thing about letters of the alphabet and quirky nature of numbers.
Even if its not, and this is something different with Pannin, whatever his name, its pretty much of a stretch to believe something connecting all 66 books with anything suggesting any unifying proof that proves the veracity of the entire collection. Was the Bible he used in Russian? How would this be remotely possible anyway after the translations from Hebrew to Greek and Latin and ye olde English and different historical styles of German and French and Italian etc etc etc, with all the editing, redactions, ommissions, and political and personal interpretations and agendas etc etc etc…? Its a messy bloody collection of tales and has existed in quite a lot of forms.
I think you can guess I am certainly not a mathematician but I am pretty sure I’m not going even going to need simple arithmetic to discover this is all just another example of pure bollocks.
Now I will google details.
Bring more references Code-Beta1234
And welcome MaxFrench.
One quick look and I see on Wikipedia that one of Panin’s better known proponents was Chuck Missler, you might know him better as the stand up theist comedian who presented “Peanut Butter the Atheist’s Nightmare” which is regarded by many to be even funnier than Ray Comfort’s memorable skit, “The Banana, the Atheist’s Nightmare”. There was some contention that Missler had stolen original material from Comfort who got his video out a year before Missler.
Yeah. Convincing stuff. Just cant understand why I am not a theist.
Code-Beta:"…and you arent…"
Nyar: “Says who?”
Boom! LMAO! Classic!
Thanks Nyar for the laugh.
Oh 06, 21, 3, 11. 1, 14, 15, 20, 08, 05. 4, 23, 05, 05, 02.
There are 24 letters in the Greek alphabet. There are 622,700 words in the old testament. How many of those words are common. You would be an idiot to imagine patterns would not occur. THEY OCCUR IN EVERY LANGUAGE AND IN EVERY TEXT.
Welcome to the Forum!
First off, I would say it is highly probable that these people already believed in god and are willing to use anything they can even if it barely fits as evidence (A priori fallacy). The problem here is with their bad epistemology of faith, and even if you disprove this to them, they will just hop onto something else. As I mentioned in another post, when you faith in a god and a whole holy book worth of stuff, believing crap like this or covering up errors with faith is easy. Targeting faith as the problem will probably be more productive.
Next, you can and will find patterns in any huge document. We only have so many letters in an alphabet and word types. Guess what, the Quran has this too: https://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/miracle/
I guess the Quran is true as well… " Seeing recognizable objects or patterns in otherwise random or unrelated objects or patterns is called pareidolia . It’s a form of apophenia , which is a more general term for the human tendency to seek patterns in random information." This really is no different than people having an unlikely prayer come true.
Finally, assuming that there really is a code of some kind, to assume that god put it there is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. People believe it because they want to, not because they have evidence. This is like prophecy. If Jesus existed really as the Bible states, then the some of the prophecies are true, if not, then they are just coincidences. Having god put this code here is completely dependent on god existing. If 4000 witnesses of the 4000 religions say a prophecy and they all come true, which ones were a lucky guess about the future and which ones were divinely inspired? There is no way to tell, you have to assume it. It most likely is coincidence, but this points back to the fact that they want to believe in god, so everything they don’t understand must have been done by it. Once again, go after the bad epistemology of faith, because it is what enables this thinking.
As a side note, only some of the prophecies could possibly be true in the new testament, because most that claim to be prophecies are not actually prophecies.
If all it takes is mathematical coincidences to get people to believe in something, I’ll design a holy book right now and make a mint =D Oh look, mine has the most math patterns, it must be true…
A provisional welcome to AR. On first glance I’m not convinced of your atheism
I am an atheist. That means I do not believe in God.
The Torah is the mythology of Judaism. The New Testament is the mythology of
The tract you posted is umm, “deeply flawed” .The writer is trying to argue or bluff god into existence. This atheist demands falsifiable evidence and will accept nothing less…
The tract makes claims, but no actual argument.
Finding code in the bible is an ancient technique called “Pesher” To say it is controversial is to understate.
“That only god could have composed” ? Oh please. Classic argument from ignorance fallacy.
“another source of interest”----to the author perhaps.
I’ll be thrilled if you can find one piece of actual proof in the rest of the tract.
The guy become a believer? Yup, in his own humbug.
Barbara Theiring was a brilliant scholar, who ‘discovered’ a pesher technique which she believed implicitly. I read her first book. She provides many different biblical interpretations,. but of course no proof is possible…–Not believing in gods, I’m also unable to believe in the existence of divinely inspired writings, for the same reason; lack of proof.
The two articles linked below are worth a glance if you are interested in the pesher technique.
Pesher (/ˈpɛʃər/ (listen); Hebrew: פשר, pl. pesharim , from the Hebrew root meaning “interpretation,” is a group of interpretive commentaries on scripture. The Pesharim commentaries became known from the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. The pesharim give a theory of scriptural interpretation of a number of biblical texts from the Old Testament, such as Habakkuk and Psalms
This site is a follow-on from Dr. Barbara Thiering’s popular book “Jesus the Man”. This scholarly site uses word-for-word pesher analysis of all the major verses of the Gospels and Revelation, revealing the true Christian origins. It shows how Jesus, after surviving the Crucifixion, continued to shape the early Christian Church, writing the gospels of John and Luke and parts of Paul’s Epistles and finally how he died in Rome at the age of 78 near the end of June, 72 AD.
Sadly Dr. Barbara Thiering died November 16, 2015 at the age of 85 and will be sorely missed.
(See her obituary written by her daughter and sons)
Totally agreed Boomer! I tried to explain that to a group of christians at one time…with predictable results.
However as there are enough flaws in the various accepted versions of the various texts (never mind the gnostics et al) I have left that particular egregious demonstration of “interpretation” out of my arsenal. It does upset them so…