What needs to be done is to make a distinction between what a messianic figure would have looked like,to a Jew a Hebrew who was expecting his arrival, the nature of the time period they lived in, namely war, fires and slaughters. Contrast this with the aftermath of the Jewish war namely broken hearts, total disappointment, disillusionment. A time of heart searching to make sense of things. So how do you account for a Kingdom of God fought for on earth and suddenly it is in heaven. The real messiah was likely a leader of a fighting mob. The other a product of an attempt at pacification propaganda. Christianity is not as Judeo Christian as its believers would like to believe. It is Judeo Pagan evident by the teaching that the kingdom of God is in heaven. (Some text removed by mod)
With respect to, or in response to, what?
Even the gospel narratives draw the contrast between what Judaism allegedly expected (a fighting messiah who would free them from the yoke of the Romans, basically) and what Jesus was portrayed as (concerned with inner conquest rather than political conquest – although to hear an evangelical / zionist Christian talk, you’d think Jesus was a gun-toting Republican).
To the notion that the time period in question was uniquely one of war and slaughter, IDK that this couldn’t be said of most periods in human history, and we seem to be entering such a period now in fact. So I don’t regard it as particularly unique.
I take it you think this was a mistake then? A pagan concept or something?
People have always argued about the exact meaning of the “kingdom of God”. Whether it is here on earth or somewhere else (or in some sense both). But if your ideology can’t really deliver on the promise of “heaven on earth” then it HAS to be displaced into the afterlife as an article of faith in order to be any sort of incentive to attract adherents.
Are you aware of any religious belief system that has successfully promoted some form of an earthly situation that was superior in terms of peace, prosperity, order, or some other positive quality, to the general environment that all humans contend with? Or are you pushing a promised result of revolution which, while not “in heaven”, is nevertheless unrealized?
Pushing nothing but knowledge, no belief. I was raised Christian steeped in it for 40 years. My about- face was complete when I came to the realization that the New Testament writings are a work of fiction.
Written by the most literate of the time. They were likely elite Romans and Jews originally during the Flavian regime. They had access to and used the scrolls looted from the most holy of the temple. They also likely
Used the works of Josephus with parables being an antitype to stories in the works of Josephus..Christianity is not Judeo Christian because before Christianity there was no Christianity. There was primarily Judaism and Paganism. so it should correctly be understood as Judeo Pagan. So much in the NT is pro Roman, pay taxes, be poor and be good to them, Do not fight.because your kingdom is in heaven (which itself is a pagan concept. Also the prayer emphasizing forgiving debtors was basically a Caesars prayer because histories show them competing to see who could forgive more.. It can be noted that regarding the prayer in the garden it says no one heard him which
speaks volumes in regard to it being fiction. I know of no religion pushing anything superior or being the only source of good as taught by Christianity (John) and as articulated by Stephan Miller when He used the expression
“..they produce nothing…” The best I see relates to permaculture which is more a design science for sustainable living. Some promoters may be religious but I still like what they teach Example Ernst Gotsch Syntropic farming. Your point about a time of war and slaughter you are correct with a difference in tools Knives swords stones fire balls versus nuclear bombs..
It is Judeo-Christian only in the sense that they appropriated Judaism by claiming Christianity to be the fulfillment and completion of Judaism, retconning various passages from the Torah (in some cases misquoting them) to be prophesies “fulfilled” by Jesus. It was useful to do this to give the appearance of not being an entirely new religion, which from what I’ve read was a real obstacle to acceptance in the ancient world. Also, not coincidentally, it provided some rationale for Jews to convert, although ultimately that never worked out very well. My sister in law is the only person I’ve ever personally met who converted from Judaism to Christianity (evangelical Christianity no less) but her family were non-practicing and largely acultural Reform Jews so it wasn’t really a heavy lift. Usually though I think Jews regard Jewish culture as far more positive and affirming and useful social support structure than Christianity – there’s no problem that Christianity solves for most Jews. On the other hand I know a couple of people who converted from Christianity to Judaism (conservative in one case, ultra-orthodox in the other) because they were anxious types (both with a history of family violence) who found that sort of structure and belonging to be comforting and centering.
I’m a mythicist regarding the historicity of Jesus (admittedly a minority position) but regardless Jesus himself and his first followers were alleged to be Jewish and it’s claimed that a big controversy in the early church was whether Christians had to follow Jewish dietary laws and other rules. So I both do not really understand your need to disassociate Christianity from Judaism and do not think the effort can succeed. I mean the Christian scriptures include the Old Testament, after all. In terms of word count there’s more of that than the New Testament.
Yes, I’ll stipulate that Christianity evolved to absorb and rename pagan practices / festivals as well as Jewish ones, in order to grease the skids for pagan converts. But to me that no more makes it Judeo-Pagan than Constantine’s patronage makes it Christian-Roman. I think it’s more useful to see Christianity as an evolved set of interlocking memes that opportunistically appropriated, borrowed and adapted from the surrounding cultures as needed to survive and expand. And did a reasonably good job of it, obviously – it’s a third of the world population, at least in terms of cultural influence.
Although I suppose the contrasting fact that only 0.2% of the world population is Jewish does suggest that Christianity is in some respects pretty distinct from Judaism and may have more in common with paganism despite all its pretenses. IDK. Why does it matter though?
Spam, flagged…………………………………………….
Given how many factors would have influenced the path of both religions, it’s hard to say, but global Christianity has had a leg up, so to speak, from two of histories largest and most powerful Empires, three if you include the US. It might be more surprising if it failed after that, but it is still fragmenting, and there are of course over 45k different sects and denominations globally under the umbrella term of Christianity.
Pushing nothing but knowledge, no belief. I was raised Christian steeped in it for 40 years. My about- face was complete when I came to the realization that the New Testament writings are a work of fiction.
If the New is fiction, then why not the Old?
Try a sideways shift to another another religion Yeka and you might see the problem more clearly.
Would it be consistent of a Hindu to reject the Samaveda but continue venerating the Rigveda?
Surely, to be consistent, the sceptical eye that is cast over one must also be cast over the other?
Unless there is some emotional reason why one is favoured over the other?
Can you see the problem now?
It is ludicrous fiction.
Well from what I can tell the mods temporarily took this topic offline to edit out the shilling for the OP’s book (which I agree with). If the OP doesn’t return then it’s clear that promoting his book was his main reason to be here, not to actually discuss his ideology.